Iceberg Breeders

[RubyTuesday]

This thread should be required reading for anyone looking to even post the cliche thread...."I want to breed my GSD".

IMO, your run of the mill byb has done considerably less damage than the experienced, knowledgeable extremist breeders who have sacrificed so much in the quest for some bizarre 'dream conformation'. It's these breeders that have ultimately (& proudly) given us 1/2 dog, 1/2 frog or banana backed GSDs riddled with health & temperament problems.

The situation is sadly very similar with many pb dogs. A glance at the Cavalier shows a dog that has been increasingly neotenized through the years. Even 20 yrs ago they looked quite different...longer, sharper muzzles, less rounded heads, eyes not as prominent. They were a pretty little dog who even then faced serious health problems (heart), but they weren't the k9 Kewpies they've sloooowly degenerated into. Syringomyelia is not yet completely understood, but that's almost irrelevant given breeders obvious disinterest in rigorously breeding away from this vicious, agonizing condition. People. Bleh.

[W.Oliver]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

IMO, your run of the mill byb has done considerably less damage than the experienced, knowledgeable extremist breeders who have sacrificed so much in the quest for some bizarre 'dream conformation'. It's these breeders that have ultimately (& proudly) given us 1/2 dog, 1/2 frog or banana backed GSDs riddled with health & temperament problems.

Agreed.

[carmspack]

I don't agree that byb do less damage . There is more to it than less damage .

There is little that they do to contribute to the greater good because they don't appreciate the breed enough to attain and maintain , to conserve and preserve them. The dogs are just dogs . Nature always takes the easiest path -- soon they will be a generic , pariah type -- . Whatever is popular , largely colour based is okey dokey.
You have to be familiar with the work -- what works , what is natural drive . You see in these discussions how important pedigree and breed history is .

The GSD was created for excellence in performance. The name stood for something. The breed stood for something . A kennels name stood for something .

All it takes is for a few brave people to stand and say that the emporer is naked .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[sagelfn]

I think a BYB does more damage in the sense that they have changed what the breed is to most people. If it looks like a GSD that is good enough.

Breed standard, titles, pedigree papers, etc.. are for snobs. If you just want a pet you can get a GSD on craigslist or the newspaper.

[cliffson1]

I agree with Carmen and Ruby Tuesday. That's why I get so mad at some breeders using the BYB label every chance they get and as far as I'm concerned they are clinical BYB.
To me one of the main problems with the reputable breeders of today is that they rely on clinical testing to allow themselves to be legitimate or reputable, and have not put in the due diligence in history, genetics, bloodlines, research, and anecedotal knowledge to make decisions below the waterline of the iceberg. All of the clinical testing is the visible part of the iceberg...the greatest part of the iceberg is always submerged. So if you are basically ignorant of these things below the visibilty line, there is more of the breeding that is not planned or directed. This results in stagnation or regression. Sure you will get one or two nice pups, but you will also get many with issues, that are often labelled as being abused as the causation. You ever notice how EVERY dog that comes out of a shelter with issues has been abused???? Bullmarlarkey!! Half of these dogs have genetic issues from poor breeding and many by reputable breeders. Breeders that breed the top of the iceberg and the bottom of the iceberg is tearing them up. Of course when the person rescues them from the shelter, there is usually an abuse story attached to the dog. Much of this is nothing but faulty breeding. Especially aggression and shyness issues. Sorry folks, but it true!!

[carmspack]

. It's these breeders that have ultimately (& proudly) given us 1/2 dog, 1/2 frog or banana backed GSDs riddled with health & temperament problems.


STOP buying them.

I can be real cynical , but realistically cynical on this one . The SV has treated working dog breeders so shabbily --- like a guest at a restaurant that is seated at the table next to the rest room or the wait staffs work area . While the others get the window seats . They are jealously guarding their silly black and red dogs . It has gotten to the point where there are only "saddle" dogs, not even blanket , few black and tans and certainly NO sables , although sable was the original colour.
Some years back there was a sable male entered in the BSZS , the year end national show of shows were the nations top physical specimen is crowned "Sieger" . Well if the crowd didn't stand and boo -- Fred Lanting wrote quite a bit about this event as did a British spectator . VA1(ÖST) 2XVA2(BSZS) Timo vom Berrekasten - German Shepherd Dog -- Timo Berrakasten .
Sadly this craze for the black and red dog has encouraged the cheaters , fighting for more red, deeper red , with dye , or photo enhancement .

Instead of keeping and improving a positive quality people want to take it to an exaggeration . So many American show dogs with their long limbs fore and aft , and roomy reach at the "flying trot" have no period of suspension . When I look at SV lineups I don't see the period of suspension there either . This means there should be a period where only one or none , feet are making contact with the ground. For that brief moment the dog flies through the air . When examining the previously mentioned samples there are often 3 feet on the ground at any given time . Look for it and you will see it . I have a picture in mind but I don't want to do breeder bashing --- can we do it , will it be all right ?

When moving the GSD should have a level back . This is what it looks like
SG1 Kessy vom Waldwinkel - German Shepherd Dog this is what it looks like "von Lord Fandor" enjoy this one

‪Dingo vom Haus Gero, The Best Mover - Poetry in Motion‬‏ - YouTube

‪Dingo vom Haus Gero, The Best Mover - Poetry in Motion‬‏ - YouTube

The roached back goes well beyond an arch being the strongest structure spanning two points. A roach should have a gentle arch . Dogs we see now look like they have a hinge. The forward reach is hackneyed.

In any case with all this , temperament and character and working ability have gone well in to the backgound .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[robinhuerta]

I think by learning from the mistakes of the past...we can be better equiped for the future. JMO

[cliffson1]

Robin, Ya know I luv ya, but I have to call you on this. What are the mistakes of the past in the show world that has led to improvements for the future? Could you give us some details, on the way it was in the past, and how the evolution has improved, now resulting in improvement for the breed.?????
Again, this isn't just a showline topic, many workingline breeders are missing the point. But the underlying reasons are different than for showlines. Often working line breeders have much knowledge of the history of the breed, they do their research, and they keep up with the different progeny and producers/nonproducers to shape their breeding decisions. More importantly, the workingline breeders have one built in advantage over the showline and that ultimately the quality of their dogs is determined by empirical knowledge as opposed to preference knowledge.
One of the biggest hinderances to breeding today is that the type of dogs that really represent the best of the breed, are never used today. By this I mean dogs that were bred and raised to do practical work. Ego and Status so greatly affect the choice of breeding partners that it is a crime. That happens with both working and show. When do you ever see a top hobby breeder use a dog that is a police dog, a real herding dog, or an untitled dog , or even a dog that is tiitled in another discipline.(like KNPV,SAR,PSA,
or UD or HGH. You ever see working or show people import HGH dogs from Europe to open up their lines and bring much needed genetic traits that we are losing. Very very very seldom. Oh you hear the usual reasons, the police dogs aren't standardized in performance, their are many police dogs that aren't that good...blah,blah,blah....DUH....and there are many Sch/IPO dogs that aren't very good???? Get your arse out there and see them and research this element. What about bloodlines in Europe that still preserve the herding factor, dogs that still work flocks today and their lines....no effort made to seek these dogs....and on and on and on, Sweden has superior dogs in that country but very seldom do people look to their dogs(and I think primarily that Sweden has developed their own testd for the working dogs that still requires dogs to do intuitive thinking.) WHY folks????? because we are so caught up in titles and certs that have become our gods in breeding that whole segments of good genetics are not being used and the irony is this segment uses the traits of the breed that really should be preserved. I go to police dog trials and they are open to the public....you know how many German Shepherd breeders you will see at those trials?????? Practically none. We are obsessed with breeding with the top of the iceberg, because it is easier, it is easier to explain to and sell for profit, it doesn't require the due diligence, and it allows breeders to cover their lack of knowledge about the breed.
When breeders start becoming craftsman again, being thoroughly knowledgable of their craft, their tools, their history, and breed for the breed and not for specific venues....let me say that again because many of you didn't process that...and breed for the breed and not specific venues.....then the overall health and welfare of the breed will improve, imo.

[robinhuerta]

Cliff...I understand your points and I do agree with many of them....I'm not going to debate anything SL vs WL. I believe this breed has gone on many paths that have caused the problems we see today.
Learning from the past mistakes is a complete observation....in regards to this breed as a whole.
I can't change what has already been done in the past....I , as a breeder today, can only try to make a difference in what dogs I choose to breed now and in the future.
I am a SL enthusiast because I choose particular venues to perform in......not because I have no value for temperament or soundness. *Quite contrary actually*.
I believe we "reap what we sow".....and as long as breeders make a path through the genetic knots, traps and dead ends...we can still produce good, sounds dogs that represent this breed....be it WL or SL.
I am not a Schutzhund sport enthusiast....I do not have the personal time to sacrifice to it, but I respect others that choose to perform in the sport.
Your ideals and knowledge (along with others) are a wonderful tool and resourceful gift to many of us....and I thank you for that.
However;......I do not believe that the SL dogs should be "banned" or not used for breeding because the consensus of some are that they are complete genetic monstrosities....
I think crap is crap period.....and yes...the SL dog has alot of baggage, and the breeders of yesterday *started* the domino effect....but it is up to breeders of today & tomorrow, to put our foot forward and produce mentally & physically strong dogs, capable of the tasks required for this breed....WL or SL.

Again, you are entitled and (rightly justified) to your views, and I do respect them....

[robinhuerta]

Also Cliff....
I would have no problem with breeding to or from an untitled dog (I already have)...or a dog titled other than Schutzhund.
I have never believed that a title made a dog.....the dog and it's genetics make the dog. FWIW