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post #141 of 192 (permalink) Old 11-24-2012, 08:48 AM
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Thanks Cliff! I will investigate that DVD of Fanto!

I would also enjoy seeing videos/DVDs of great working dogs from the past (I recall one of Mink and one of Lord that were both fascinating...and they were dogs of the 1980s and early 90s...not all too long ago)

I sincerely thank you all for the historical discussion!

Totally agree Lee...this thread is a gem that needs to be archived/"pinned"

Yasmina Rose von Fernheim RATI
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post #142 of 192 (permalink) Old 04-28-2013, 06:32 PM
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Great thread. I just finished reading through the whole thing and it's been invaluable information to me as a total newbie to purebreds.

Thank you so much to everyone who contributed!

ARCHMX TDCH Pongu the Insane, CD-C, RE, RL1X6, RL2X5, RL3X2 (GSD mix, b. Apr 2010)
Crookytail the Tigerwuff, RL1, ITD (Akita mix, b. Jan 2011)
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post #143 of 192 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 01:55 AM
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resurrecting this because this deserves and needs to be added to this thread mostly in German , portions in English , graphs self explanatory.

Besides the comments about show and working which are expressed as statistics there are some excellent results of years of comparison with hip production - show vs working listing main influential studs.

Go to pages 55 onward if you want to head straight to the charts on hip production percentages.

There needs to be regulation on the allowable stud services of one male per year , otherwise there will be a further narrowing of genetics . starting page 80 , 81 covers stud business for the elites "
The absolute frontrunner or let’s call him the revenue-champion of the 5-year period 2003-2007 would be
Quantum von Arminius. If we would estimate a stud fee of 1,200 Euros per jump, he would have made 477,600
Euros in this period of time, little less than half a million Euros. Without any expenses of course! Elementary,
the female comes to the male. In this case and at this scale, the definition "hobby" is by no means appropriate:



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post #144 of 192 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 02:51 AM
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back to English page 91
page 102
Since the Martin brothers Hermann and Walter (after they got rid of Dr. Rummel* in the most unpleasant
fashion) changed Captain Max von Stephanitz’s heritage, from a “Gebrauchshund“ (working dog) into a „luxurydog“
(read: profitable Photoshop-model), the Sieger needs to please the eye of the beholder only, who is either
the SV-President or the National Breed Warden. Hermann Martin crowned his brother Walter’s Zamb (despite
most questionable HD-history), and later Kimon van Dan Alhedys’ Hoeve (a Mark vom Haus Beck son!) with the
Sieger title, during which Dr. Beck simultaneously crowned Vanta von der Wienerau VA1 and Kelly von
Arminius VA2, thank you! And why not throw in some more titles for the family? Wanni von der Wienerau with
VA4 and Nathalie von der Wienerau VA6. Dr. Beck is satisfied enough as he is with the last VA7 place for Vanta
vom Haus Beck. One must know the pecking order and yield.
(Note: During the Martin-era, the most important titles were distributed between three kennels only:
Hermann’s own kennel “von Arminius”, his brother Walter’s kennel “von der Wienerau” and the one of his best
friend Martin Göbl: “vom Wildsteiger Land”.)
*: Quote from my manuscript: „Dr. Christopher Rummel from Viernheim, let’s just say a southerner, proprietor
of the kennel „von Ägidiendamm“ was elected president in 1971. His rival candidate had been Dr. Ernst Beck
from the north, from Wiebelskirchen in Prussia, with his kennel „vom Haus Beck“. Meanwhile we have learned,
how grievous the consequences of this election have been on the German Shepherd Dog. Viernheim (which
today still is a symbol for dogs from the kennels „von Arminius“ and „von der Wienerau“, owned by the
brothers Hermann and Walter Martin) became the “capital” of Shepherd Dog Country, although many people
think that Rummel and Walter Martin did not like each other very much. Could be that the dedication (

obsession) of Dr. Rummel to exterminate Canine Hip Dysplasia didn’t please everyone. (That’s my kind of man!)
During his term in office tattooing was introduced in 1971 already. Now that would at least cut down on some
of the cheating.
In 1969 Rummel had been able to judge the Gebrauchshundeklasse Rüden for the first time. Straightaway a
Wienerau-dog was elected into the Auslese-group: Quanto von der Wienerau became VA4. His color would
soon be a money-spinner and the utmost breeding goal alike. In those days a completely black dog was still
competing in the Auslese-group, Frei von der Gugge VA8, it’s been a long time. As an extremely hard dog it was
clear he belonged to the working dog fans. Henceforth the so-called two “populations”, as they had already
been partially created before at the moment of splitting the East and the West, would now also consolidate
further within the Bundesrepublik (Federal Republic) itself. Viernheim was the center for focusing on anatomy,
on the gorgeous dog, on aesthetics. Step-by-step one would start to neglect „die Leistung“ (the working
abilities) within what was Germany at that time.



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post #145 of 192 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 06:38 AM Thread Starter
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CARMEN, tell the truth! You know Cliff the basher wrote this! There's no way that certain people on this forum could allow themselves to accept from indisputable source what I have said about the historical and current condition of these lines! Now I know other knowledgable people have also tried to convey this information, but I think the apologist find me the biggest culprit. The irony is I don't believe in lines, I believe a quality GS is a good sound, noble, athletic, strong working dog whose beauty is in its ability to perform its utility. I look at color and lines like I do hips, I like them if they are functional, I don't think they should be used for breeding if they are severely lacking. Simple,.....this new found thinking that whatever you like regardless of its comportment to the standard is allowable; is faulty thinking primarily used by specialist in a utility dog world.
Carmen, though what you highlighted in blue comes from far more reputable sources than myself, it is a far more accurate account of the breed than the opinions of people who base their views on LIKES as opposed to history and standard. But forums gives everyone equal footing in their opinions, even if not grounded in fact or knowledge, or should I say very limited knowledge..
In Germany, it is now about money when it comes to this breed, especially producing for international community that often couldn't tell standard working components if they wanted, for many Americans its about the aesthetic beauty of the GSL dog, though they often know diddly about the dogs they are promoting, the real irony is all these dogs have certs and titles, so to the uninformed pet owners and breeders these are the creme de la to the real working world for which this dog was created and STILL can be utilized seldom see these dogs anymore! So very sad!

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post #146 of 192 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
If people really understood this they wouldn't have maintained what they did through him in other countries. I have always felt that Germany bred a certain type of dog to market to the world for monetary gain and they developed another type with totally different genetics for work. Do you think it is a coincidence that none of the top working kennels in Germany have used Canto's lines or derivatives of his lines for decades. They know the money is in black and red and there is a vast world out there that places more value on the part of the iceberg they can see. That the continued breeding on these early same dogs leading to higher incidences of health and temperament problems doesn't bother them because they are exporting most of them for profit and keeping only enough for replenishment.
Carmen, you know as well as I, 40 years ago, when there was no separation in lines and VA dogs were all colors and types, YOU could not buy a VA dog. During the sixties/seventies, we had Erko vom Dinkelland for a long time as the only VA dog in the country. They hardley ever parted with VA stock. But as soon as they developed this line off of Canto/Quanto....everything was for sale at the right price.
Oh Well!!
It's not just a feeling, it is a well known fact. Showline breeding is a Billion Dollar Business, especially when you look at what China is dishing out for these dogs, or Thailand. It's the sad truth.
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post #147 of 192 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 09:21 AM
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Cliff this thread is like a working GSD - so versatile ! so much information is relevant , a good sticky for anyone entertaining the thought of breeding .

Found this page 88 - previously he had provided a fact-rant on the folly of Canto, his faulty sire Hein Konigsbruch , his faulty dam Liane Wienerau . In translation he says the VA Sieger for 2000 Ursus Batu is 6 times inbred on Palme. A person can barley believe this . But it is true . "
Der Auslesesieger 2000,
Ursus von Batu, ist 6 X ingezogen auf Palme. Man kann es kaum glauben. Aber es ist wahr.“



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post #148 of 192 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 09:48 AM
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with exacto knife precission the powers that be , Wienerau and Arminius kennels , decided that "the" lines that would be the showlines stem from Canto, Quanto, Palme.

Bernd , Bodo Lierberg , competing in the same time frame were left without a Lobby , no support, no, less than support , a deliberate turning away from - although they had so much to offer for conformation and for working "leistung"

This would have been fascinating had a dog such as this been key to the formation of a line - an alternative to Canto / Quanto
VA Hardt vom Sprühturm this from the pedigree data base
Sire Born : 15. February 1968

to my eye excellent conformation interpretation of the breed standard . This is the conformation of a tireless working dog - although I would look for a better foot.

What a pedigree !
Die Bernd und Bodo-Linie hatte scheinbar keine Lobby, denn aus dieser Linie gab es auch leistungsstarke, sowie
auch gebäudemässig überragende Tiere wie Bredo vom Lichtburghof, Joll von Bemholt und sein Sohn Hardt vom
Sprühturm, sowie Seffe vom Busecker Schloß, VA, und Bruder Sirk, Junghundsieger!
„Hermann Martin regte dann die vermehrte Benutzung der beiden Rüdenlinien Canto und Quanto an und

engte meines Erachtens die blutliche Auslese noch weiter ein. Da beide"

this tiny script is my input -- in spite of early warnings from the likes of Alfred Hahn

now quoting from page 89 "
Alte erfahrene Züchter
erwähnten schon sehr früh, dass fehlendes Pigment oft auch mit fehlender Härte und Arbeitsbereitschaft
verbunden sei. Viele Artikel der SV-Hefte der 60-iger Jahre haben dieses Thema behandelt und oft waren
Hunde der Leistungsstämme im HGH Bereich wie Alfred Hahn erwähnte, dunkelgraue oder tiefpigmentierte,
oft sehr dunkelfarbige Tiere. Auf alle Fälle waren den Züchtern vor gut 40 Jahren,"



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post #149 of 192 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 11:03 AM
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I started reading this article late last night into the early hours of today -- made it to 103 .

Here is another nugget "
You must be just as surprised as I was at the fact that there is actually only one single decisive blood line left.
Even today this very line dominates the whole stud business of the top dogs in the Hochzucht. The blood line
starts with the forefathers of Xaver von Arminius and Palme vom Wildsteiger Land. Do go ahead and study the
genealogy table of this couple.
Now this is how almost all genealogy tables in the Hochzucht look like today. They are all the same! And the
dogs as well are very much... the same, uniform, too big and too heavy and of the same color... exemplarily.
They are all copies of one another



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post #150 of 192 (permalink) Old 06-05-2013, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
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Like I have said ad finitum...........sigh! My opinions are not made up from likes or envy....they are based in fact and data.
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