Iceberg Breeders

[ksotto333]

Originally Posted by Lakl

Carmen,
I'm sure I've asked this before, but this topic just continues to baffles me. Why?? If these dogs were well documented as producing many progeny with severe HD, were they considered such an asset in the breeding world?? Are their progeny's successes more heavily documented than the ones with issues?

I started reading this last night..it's very interesting..it'll take me more than once to understand it though. I also wondered why those dogs were so heavily bred.

[PupperLove]

What an eye opener, what an awesome, awesome thread. I had to stop many times to do extra research to understand what was being talked about before continuing. But I have a totally different view on breeding. Thanks to all who contributed, and Lakl, I'm so sorry about your pup. Your story has a major impact on this thread, for sure.

BUMP!

This is a must read for anyone who wants to become a breeder!!

[Lakl]

I LOVE this thread, and every time someone mentions it, I find myself going back to read it again. This is one of those that you just want Carm and Cliff to keep going on and give us more, more! And then of course, after reading, I always want to PM one of them to PLEASE make me a puppy! :-).

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Lakl

I LOVE this thread, and every time someone mentions it, I find myself going back to read it again. This is one of those that you just want Carm and Cliff to keep going on and give us more, more! And then of course, after reading, I always want to PM one of them to PLEASE make me a puppy! :-).

I just found this thread and read it through....

And I came away thinking the same thing!!

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by Lakl

Carmen,
I'm sure I've asked this before, but this topic just continues to baffles me. Why?? If these dogs were well documented as producing many progeny with severe HD, were they considered such an asset in the breeding world?? Are their progeny's successes more heavily documented than the ones with issues?

When these dogs were being bred, the ZW system was not in place...this was about WINNING...

the attitude here in the States - particularly as expressed by people who love GSDs, have companion GSDs, and are not active in any sport - is vastly different from the European and especially the European breeder from my exposure/experience. Hips are only ONE line on a punch list of attributes considered in a breeding....and every aspect has a risk factor of being carried through....temperament, dentition, hips, coat, color....etc etc

It is common in Germany (from the people I have spoken to!!) that a dog or pup with bad hips will be put down rather than seeking a home for that dog if it is in a competition home (pet home - don't know!) but the people who show/trial/compete/breed UNDERSTAND that there are many negative variables that can show up - hips, drive, temperament, grips, courage, etc - that will wash the prospect out of their program....hips are no more or less important than any other. Frankly, MANY dogs who fail OFAs or 'a' stamps still live happy productive lives. Not all are severely dysplastic, and many get titled and are active in sports or real work...many live full lives as pets... a smaller percentage are severe enough to be surgical candidates or be euthanized

One of the problems today is the line breeding and back massing on these well known dogs who were poor hip producers....even with the closer generations showing clear - the back massing allows a larger risk for the genes of the poor hips to come through - just like the issues with Lance of Fran Jo affecting the ASL population. Breeders breed to change angulation of forearm, set of ears, coup, tail - all the things they can see...but the conformation of the hip joint is not visible, so they don't think about it in the same way...I believe as technology progesses, we will be able to see the hip x-rays of our breeding stock and potential mates more easily and can take them into account in our breeding decisions!

Lee

[cliffson1]

Good Post Lee!

[Saxtonhill]

Cliff...you mentioned having video of Fanto free moving ...is this something that I can access on line or would I need to purchase this somewhere? I would also like to see video/motion pictures of dogs from 30, 40 50 years ago and earlier if possible. Can anyone advise me here as to where to gain access to such material?

Carmen...thank you also for the excellent and thought provoking discussion. This is a thread to be saved and studied.

I am primarilly interested in structure, anatomy and movement as it pertains to the canine (or equine) athlete. It seems to me, from what I have observed, particuarly in race horses, that the most efficient movers are not always the flashiest in type, though they may be excellent examples of their breed...but they have superb balance and function.

Once again, thank you all and I am pinning and saving this discussion. Though I have been involved with dogs and horses for thirty years, one never stops learning.

[cliffson1]

The video on Fanto is a 90 minute VHS/DVD on the life of Fanto vom Hirschel. Excellent video showing him winning both Seiger shows, shows him swimming, doing bite work, relaxing with family, and many gaiting performances. Truly a very nice dog, though his history of male production is very disappointing.

[carmspack]

I've got some ideas to reactivate this thread . I was gifted decades worth of reference material by Linda Shaw including Schutzhund USA and Das Schaferhund Magazin and Working Dog and German Shepherd Quarterlies and some other SV publication - whew - I need to build a new wing to the house to stash all this stuff .

One of the first things I read was in Das Schaferhund Magazin had to do with "funny" business with measurements of dogs and how serious a problem over size has become -- and even pending law suits --- very interesting -- .
I remember heated threads on this forum from those who want a customized dog and if they want a 29 inch 120 pound "gsd" then so be it , no concerns for the bigger picture -- oops , I mean the balanced view and importance of a standard .
want to go ahead ?

[wolfstraum]

this thread needs to be "pinned" as there is so much information here that is valuable food for thought for anyone looking for a puppy.

and adding to it rather than making a new one is keeping this one available....

Lee