Are all BYB's bad breeders?

[Mrs.K]

You have two, nicely bred dogs. Both dogs have decent drive, stable nerves and everything it takes to be a great Shepherd.
Decent confirmation, have all up to date shots and are OFA'ed.

The only thing they don't have are titles, however the breeder knows enough about dogs to determine that both dogs have what it takes to be great breeding stock.

The pups grow up in the family, they have a great yard, with tunnels, a pool with plastic bottles, a slide, tons of toys, they get socialized from the beginning, their shots and are sold for 600 dollars, without papers/possibly AKC papers.

Would you call that a bad BYB?

DISCUSS!

[Minnieski]

Well, how do you know the dogs "have what it takes" without titles? I thought that was the purpose of titles, to proof the dog.

I have a $600 dog I bought as a puppy from a trainer. His dogs were not titled (well, the sire was, but the dam was not) although their sires/dams were. The pups had a great yard, family, toys, mini agility course set up, the works. They had lots of other dogs and people around for socialization, basically the whole 9 yards.

I was very happy with my pup and I continued to socialize him every opportunity I got. Then he hit about 6 months, became fear aggressive and reactive, and I've been spending tons of time and $$$ to help him. It's horrible. I specifically told the trainer that I wanted a dog with "nerves of steel." I ended up with a dog with a lot of drive but no ability to balance it.

The breeder, IMO, was not a bad guy. He thought he was breeding good dogs, and I thought he knew enough about GSDs that I could trust him. But his breeding combination, IMO,was a disaster. For as much as I love my $600 dog, I know that for the next 12 years I'm going to have to be hyper-vigilant with him. I don't know what would have happened to my dog if someone else had bought him; and if they had not wanted to spend the time and money while testing their sanity to keep him.

So, the breeder thought he had a good combo, and I believe he had good intentions, but it turned out bad. Looking back, I feel like I should have done more research, but I thought he knew what he was doing. If Tanner never had his fear/reactivity problems, I'd probably think that my previous trainer was a great breeder.

I don't think everything can be black and white.

[onyx'girl]

I wouldn't consider that a BYB, just because they aren't working them to titles. I know of a couple breeders that have no venue available nearby to train, so titling is slow-going.
But I don't know that I would support them either unless the dogs matched well pedigree-wise, and I would want the pedigree information(proven) available without excuses as far as paperwork is concerned.
IF the breeder cannot supply the info on the parents, then yes that would be a BYB and one that shouldn't be breeding.

I'd still rather support a breeder that works their dogs in the venue that I would be pursuing with a new pup.

I would also hope this breeder screens their potential buyers and responsibly has a contract stating they must return or inform the breeder if the pup(dog) re-home is going to occur.

Minnieski, your description fits Onyx's breeder as well, and I have to manage her the same. Because of her temperament, we can't pursue things that I would have liked to with her.

[gsdraven]

How do we know the breeder knows enough about dogs to determine this for themself? What has the breeder done to prove themself?

[jocoyn]

Number one - does the breeder have the knowledge and experience to make that call?

Number two - how do they push the dogs to tell they are the total GSD

Number three-always a risk of kennel blindness without someone outside giving an objective critique

Something I would struggle with......

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

Originally Posted by jocoyn

Number one - does the breeder have the knowledge and experience to make that call?

Number two - how do they push the dogs to tell they are the total GSD

Number three-always a risk of kennel blindness without someone outside giving an objective critique

Something I would struggle with......

All of this.

Number four - how great are those dogs once they are off the property and are around new things?

[Minnieski]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

Minnieski, your description fits Onyx's breeder as well, and I have to manage her the same. Because of her temperament, we can't pursue things that I would have liked to with her.

That's exactly the problem. He's a great boy, but he'll always have to be carefully managed.

[lhczth]

I don't like labels. There are breeders I would buy from or send people to and there are those who I won't. From your description, this breeder is most likely the latter.

What has the breeder done to test the dogs' nerves, character, drives and working ability? What is their experience? How well do they know the dogs behind their two dogs? How much research have they done other than allowing their two pets to make puppies? Why are they breeding dogs without papers?

What type of socializing have they done with the puppies? How much experience do they have with puppies and evaluating puppies so they can get them into the right homes? How are they screening their buyers to make sure these cheap pups don't end up in rescue or back with their breeder?

I would ask this of all breeders, btw.

Do I know the sire and dam of the puppies? Have I seen them work and not just hanging around the house in a familiar environment? How well do I know their background/pedigree and possibly their littermates and other relatives? Can I test the puppies and spend time with the litter?

I am picky.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

You have two, nicely bred dogs. Both dogs have decent drive, stable nerves and everything it takes to be a great Shepherd.
Decent confirmation, have all up to date shots and are OFA'ed.

The only thing they don't have are titles, however the breeder knows enough about dogs to determine that both dogs have what it takes to be great breeding stock.

The pups grow up in the family, they have a great yard, with tunnels, a pool with plastic bottles, a slide, tons of toys, they get socialized from the beginning, their shots and are sold for 600 dollars, without papers/possibly AKC papers.

Would you call that a bad BYB?

DISCUSS!

If I agreed to the term BYB, then yes, they would be, however, that does not make them bad people and they might be a fine person to buy your next pet from.

At this point in my life, if I am buying a dog, first, I am buying the dog for a purpose, and secondly, I want my money to support the people who are breeding with some type of purpose/plan for the future. I would want to support breeders who have every intention of going forward with dogs they breed.

Everyone should be breeding for health and temperament and longevity -- that is a given. But good breeders should have a picture in their minds of the ideal dog, the whole dog, the type of drive they are looking for, they type of biddiblity they are looking for, specific conformation.

It is simply not good enough to put a well-bred dog with a well-bred bitch. You have to look at your bitch and see what she lacks and look for a stud that has that characteristic correct, and preferably is known to produce good ________. You should look into the background and see what is there healthwise, and ensure that if there is something there, the sire is clear or much better with respect to that. Understanding that perfect is in heaven.

Titles on the dam or sire do not make the puppies smarter. If I am dealing with someone who has titled dogs, who I trust, than titles are not the end of the world for me. If I trust their assessment of their dog, I am ok with that. But if someone does not have the history, I want to see that someone else has evaluated their dog, and I would prefer that they did it themselves -- that is a personal preference. If I have training questions for this person, then I want advice from someone who has been there, done that.

The term BYB is used for people who do little to nothing, and breed their pets, people with a number of dogs and breed them with little or no thought, all the way up to people who are pretty dog savvy, and have nice animals, titles, health screenings, but lack in some way -- maybe they only want one litter and then will be done -- they are not breeding for the future. I think the vast majority of BYBs LOVE their dogs and take good care of them in general.

If someone needs to buy a dog for less, they can go to one of these breeders. And if they visit the breeder, and the breeding animals are good ambassadors of the breed, and the conditions the dogs are kept in are good, and they have some ducks in a row, than I would not fault them for buying from them.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by jocoyn

Number one - does the breeder have the knowledge and experience to make that call?

Number two - how do they push the dogs to tell they are the total GSD

Number three-always a risk of kennel blindness without someone outside giving an objective critique

Something I would struggle with......

I agree with you, but, I think that while there is always the risk of kennel blindness, there is also always the risk of people getting a title on a less than stellar dog from a less than stellar judge.

I think that titles tell you stuff like the owner of the dog cared enough to title their dog, that the dog can function enough to manage in a show environment. But if it was important that a pup have a specific temperament for a specific purpose, I do not think I would rely on a title anyway.