Seeking advice

[ShepherdsField]

Ok, before anyone goes and gets critical ...this is what happened.

We have 4 GSD's. Our big 5 year old white male, his younger half brother, and an 18 month old female. And another female who we rescued who is spayed. The DH did not want to spay the 18 month old yet, he was waiting till she was two to see if she could be OFA certified because he was thinking he would breed her once and only once to our 5 year old, (we have 2 adult kids and several friends who have been wanting a pup from our 5 year old for years. He is an incredible dog people are impressed by) who is a working dog with a few ob and working titles to his credit. She only has her CGC and although she is well-bred, has not yet had any health screens (just regular vet care) and has been a healthy pup.

Then comes Christmas. We had kept her crated and isolated from our male during her second heat, the third week of it being during Christmas week. Did not think anything of it until LAST week when the DH noticed her nipples were swollen. She never got 'fat'. Much thinner than our spayed female Lab. We just found out last week she was pregnant and trying to figure out how that happened, thinking that our 5 year old had to be the father and she got pregnant through the door of an enclosed crate while we slept or something.

On March first she gave birth to 8 puppies. 2 white, 3 black (and tan) and 3 sable. On the first day, one of the white puppies was smothered by her mother when the DH put them all in a crate while he tried to finish the whelping box he had just started after learning she was due anytime.

It was then that my youngest daughter ratted her brother out. My youngest son was in for Christmas, he lives 3 hours away. While the DH and I went to visit his mother (not the kids grandmother), my son got tired of hearing her whine to get out of the crate and put her outside with...you guessed it....our male puppy..who he didn't think was old enough to get her pregnant. He was a year old on January 4th....

And now we have 7 healthy little GSD puppies with an 18 month old mother and a 14 month old father. He is the brother of our 5 month old, so same lines...but.

I never wanted to be a breeder and did not like any of DH's Macho ideas about the whole thing to start with. I work too much. I am a rescuer, not a breeder. We have argued alot about the entire thing. Reality is though...here are these 7 little lives.

Where do we go from here. Looking on any advice on maternity care to keep her and these pups healthy. Etc. I know to put her on a good quality puppy food and she is on prenatal vitamins. I want to keep my girl healthy.

As for the pups finding good homes, my two oldest kids (27 and 30 not my irresponsible 22 year old), two of our closest friends and 3 people from work ..are all wanting them...so not only will they have homes of people I know are suited for them, I will get to watch them grow up. My first GSD was two years old when I had my first child and she help me raise them, so my kids are GSD people. One son does SAR.

I've just never 'had a litter'. We've been taking turns staying with them 24/7 to make sure another does not get smothered. It's work.

[GSDElsa]

I can't offer much help on her care, but I would think about giving the puppies to family, friends, and coworkers. I know there are a couple breeders on here that have had problems ONLY with family and friends getting their puppies and never with the strangers they place their dogs with.

Is your son a K9 handler? It would be cool if he could get into that with the puppy if it has the right drives.

Also curious as to what your husband wanted to accomplsh with the breeding since white is a major fault.

[ShepherdsField]

Yes, Son One is a K9 handler. His dog died two years ago and now he is working with a Bernese Mountain dog.

DH wanted to reproduce the charactoristics in our 5 year old. White is a fault if you are into conformation, which he is not. There are breeders of White GSD's who produce healthy, quality dogs for various purposes. Not a place for the entire white arguement. I have agility classes with a lady who has a W. German Showline pup 11 months old with the wobbly hocks back end who can barely walk, neverless stay on a board. But she came from champion showline parents. There are conformation breeders out there producing nearly crippled dogs for the ring and line-breeders passing on major health issues just to have that pedigree. I'm not going to worry about a color. I'd rather have a healthy, functional working dog. Which two of our dogs are working dogs. The parents of this litter though, are still in training and are not yet working dogs.

[KZoppa]

oh boy. i wish i had some advice to offer. My hubby and i took in a litter of 11 mixed breed pups when they were about 2 weeks old because their mom started being aggressive towards them and stopped feeding them. It sounds to me like you're doing pretty well. Basically i know the dam should have pretty much free access to as much food as she wants to provide milk and i think as long as the whelping box is set up correctly, there should be a drastic decrease in the possibility of the dam accidently suffocating another pup but dont quote me as i'm not a breeder! I hope the breeders on the board will chime in though! good luck! I can just picture you smacking your 22 year old upside the head though lol.

edit: and access of course to fresh water but not in a possible a puppy could get in and drown.... elevated bowls perhaps?

[Whiteshepherds]

Maybe you should repost with a different title to grab more attention from breeders. Something like, New litter, not sure what to do. Help!

Best of luck, you're going to be busy!

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

I did a notify - I am sure people will be here to help.

[trudy]

best of luck, I am alos not a breeder but quit feelign defensive, it happens. Now do the best you can and ignore the insults and lectures. You are right they are here now, so hopefully lots of help will come. I know my friends who breed change tons of papers, start mushy food about 3 weeks of age and try temperment tests and socializing and keeping detailed notes as to weight and gain and reactions to stimuli. Good luck, and make hubby do lots of the cleaning, he may be interested in spaying then

[selzer]

If the dog and the bitch are AKC registered, you can register the litter. If you do not want your kids and your friends to make more puppies with them, you can just not register the litter. They can get PAL listing on their dogs when they are speutered, and enter them in performance events.

Or you can register the litter and give them papers with their puppy. That is up to you. It is not expensive.

This is work. Stay right with them until their umbilical cords fall off as a minimum. Then someone should be home with them for about a week.

Mom does most of the work now. As she is a baby, she may not be the best of mothers. Some aren't anyway. But she should be letting them nurse, cleaning them, stimulating them to urinate and defecate and cleaning it right up when they do. For her, keep her stress level to a minimum. Keep neighbors, children, other dogs out of the room. She should not be worried about a host of people or dogs around her puppies for two or three weeks.

There is no reason for the other dogs to be around her puppies at all. But after three weeks, you need to start letting approved people come in and pet them and socialize them. These people have to understand that they cannot go to pet stores or pounds prior to coming to your home, and they have to be calm people and unlikely to do really stupid stuff.

She will feed the babies for a long time even after you start solids on them. But she will be more tolerant if you keep toenails clipped. So after a week or so, the toenails will develop little hooks, they are tiny, puppies are squirmy, but you still need to clip them.

For now, weigh the puppies twice a day. If they lose weight two days in a row, you might need to supplement. It should not be necessary, but I have found out the hard way that sometimes it is. And if it is, getting the equipment and instruction from the vet might save lives.

Keep them warm. If one is off by itself, warm it up prior to feeding it. If you feed it cold it will die. Take its temperature rectally with a small digital thermometer. Adults temperature is 102 degrees, but neonatal pups is more like 98 and works its way up to 102 over the next few weeks. If it gets below 96 or 94 -- not sure which, digestive tract becomes paralyzed and puppy will not try to eat on its own. Supplementing at that point will kill the puppy.

Some bitches bleed a lot, and have discharge for weeks, some do not bleed as much. But keep an eye on your bitch. If she stops eating or drinking or does not pay attention to the puppies, take her temperature. If it is over 103 call your vet, if it is over 104, call your vet enroute.

You have been supplementing her with vitamins. This can be helpful, it can also cause issues. One is calcium. If you supplement on calcium in pregnancy, her body might not be pulling enough out of her foods as a regular basis. Usually this is ok and the supplement does just fine until the puppies are sucking good. Then they start siphoning it out of her, and at this time, people start thinking she is out of the woods now and start removing the extra. Then she can get calcium -eclampsia which is very dangerous. So know the signs of this -- look it up, and keep giving her the calcium supplements. Normally, I wait until the puppies are born and then give her ice cream, yogurt, cheese, cottage cheese, eggs, etc., and boost her diet with foods.

Anyhow, sounds like your hands are full.

Not exactly an oopse -- slap your son upside the head a few times. I am very glad that this did not go down as a 'he-got-my-bitch-through-the-crate' oopses though.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by ShepherdsField

Yes, Son One is a K9 handler. His dog died two years ago and now he is working with a Bernese Mountain dog.

DH wanted to reproduce the charactoristics in our 5 year old. White is a fault if you are into conformation, which he is not. There are breeders of White GSD's who produce healthy, quality dogs for various purposes. Not a place for the entire white arguement. I have agility classes with a lady who has a W. German Showline pup 11 months old with the wobbly hocks back end who can barely walk, neverless stay on a board. But she came from champion showline parents. There are conformation breeders out there producing nearly crippled dogs for the ring and line-breeders passing on major health issues just to have that pedigree. I'm not going to worry about a color. I'd rather have a healthy, functional working dog. Which two of our dogs are working dogs. The parents of this litter though, are still in training and are not yet working dogs.

No reason to knock conformation people, there are less then stellar examples in every line. Titles on the sire and dam do not effect the puppies in any way. You already have homes for them, so you do not need to worry about what type of buyer will be interested.

This might be a good time to join a shepherd club with real live shepherd people, and see if there is someone available to temperament test your litter -- this can help when you decide who should get which puppy.

[ShepherdsField]

Thanks for the advice. Both of the parents are AKC registered and well bred dogs. They were just very young and it was not planned. The pups are 3 days old and doing well. Very plump and vocal and Mom is eating well. So far so good.