Stubborness ?

[Nelly]

Can dogs be truly stubborn or is it better described as something else ?

The term is misleading and confusing for me as it was mentioned in the other thread, a dog can be so wrongly labelled because of poor training and the unwillingness of a trainer to try other techniques.

Also because a dog works well in motivational techniques does that make it biddable ? I wouldn't think so unless it can work for praise from the handler ? My own dog likes toys and loves treats and sure can do obedience quite nicely for those rewards but she is not what I would call truly biddable dog.

She does have some interest in working for me- all dogs do ( and of course depends on the relationship with the handler) to some degree but that is not what I am talking about here.

If I use compulsion, she can handle a correction and keep the enthusiasm up in obedience provided I use the type of reward she finds most valuable, food. However I cannot do that with just praise- not enough interest from her there, so there is no where to go resulting in avoidance type behaviours imo. Performance can look flat, slow- and perhaps to someone looking on they might label her a bit stubborn, but to me it seems better described really again as avoidance behaviours/don't want to be here attitude.

Just my limited experience, I apologise for the long post but this subject interests me and I wish to learn more.

Would like to hear more views/experiences on the topic.

Thankyou.

[Mac's Mom]

This is a good post. I'd like to hear what people have to say.

We always joke that Mac is spoiled and rebellious. But, we know in our hearts we haven't been consistent in our training and are now paying the price.

[Good_Karma]

I'm mostly convinced that Rosa has a huge stubborn streak. I'm sure some of it is my lack of ability to motivate her as a trainer, but my weaker side wants to just call it stubbornness. If there is something that she does NOT want to do, she will NOT do it. She will turn her back on me, pretend I don't exist, and I cannot regain her focus until we start doing something else. I know the owner of her litter mate, and she has experienced the same attitude from her dog. They are both very determined dogs. So I can't blame Rosa's behavior entirely on my lack of training skills.

[Emoore]

Stubbornness = intelligence the human doesn't know how to deal with. (I've learned a lot about this one )

[Vandal]

There is nothing wrong with describing certain bloodlines or dogs with terms that describe their character. As long as the term used describes a dog and not a human. Stubborn is not a trait related to animals. It is a trait seen in humans. When people describe a dog as stubborn, for me, it shows an unwillingness, ( some might call that stubbornness ), to look at themselves and their impact on the dog.

Mostly, what people call stubborn is something else or a combination of things that may look like stubbornness but is not. Calling a dog stubborn is assigning human traits to an animal. Every person I know who does that , also has problems communicating with their dog. Lee's comment on the other thread was a general one and lots of dog people use that term as a form of shorthand. I don't allow myself to use that term but I understand what she was describing.

As a dog trainer who spends most of her time training the owners, I feel it is important that people clearly understand that dogs are not stubborn. That kind of thinking leads to the handler taking what the dog does personal. When you allow yourself to think that way, your ability to understand and train the dog, suffers and things get very difficult for the dog. The number one rule in dog training is to look at yourself first and make adjustments there. I can assure you, 99.9 % of the time, it is the person causing confusion and never the dog being stubborn.

[debbiebrown]

i also think some dogs just shut down do to to much training or not the right motivational training....i wouldn't call it stubborn, just the handler needing to find a different way to motivate the dog.................

[Vandal]

However I cannot do that with just praise- not enough interest from her there, so there is no where to go resulting in avoidance type behaviours imo

It could be you are not offering enough praise or praise that appeals to her. Most of the people I work with are a bit too introverted and only offer praise that is more "restrained". Dogs like enthusiasm and genuine praise, not simply a "good girl" without the handler's heart attached to it.

Many times I can get people to open up a bit by telling them to use terms and behaviors in training that they use around the house when they are happy with their dog. Lots of people have kind of silly nicknames that they use with a certain tone that their dog really likes. When they use that in training, the dog perks right up because they understand it as something pleasant. Most people start out with rather gruff praise that I, as a person, find unappealing, so, I know the dog does.
One analogy I use that kind of clears it up for people is this. When you are at work, when you first get there in the morning the way certain people greet you is different. Some people are very up and happy and enthusiastic and greet you with a sincerity that will make you smile while others barely look up and grumble a good morning that means nothing...or worse. lol. We are affected by that and dogs even more so.

Your mood matters when you use compulsion and the dog must see your good mood as a result of her compliance. Here is a very good quote from an article written way back in 1980:

"What pleases the dog most in such a situation is our greatly positive mood and the satisfaction for a job well done. If we apply these experiences to the training of the young dog, it means that we must let the dog feel our satisfaction for the accomplishment of even the simplest task as soon as the praise-worthy exercise is concluded. This demands that the handler be demonstrative and enthusiastic. Persons who have trouble doing that may have to resort to play. But praise by play is still only a crutch for the handler who does not know how to communicate his happy enthusiasm to his dog."

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by Vandal

Mostly, what people call stubborn is something else or a combination of things that may look like stubbornness but is not. Calling a dog stubborn is assigning human traits to an animal. Every person I know who does that , also has problems communicating with their dog. Lee's comment on the other thread was a general one and lots of dog people use that term as a form of shorthand. I don't allow myself to use that term but I understand what she was describing.icult for the dog. The number one rule in dog training is to look at yourself first and make adjustments there. I can assure you, 99.9 % of the time, it is the person causing confusion and never the dog being stubborn.

Point taken - stubborn is what most pet owners and lots of trainers use as a descriptive term....I understand the difference, but as semantics, it works to get a point across....my DDR dog was not "stubborn" but did have her own agenda, esp when tracking....which she LOVED - and which people like T Floyd praised her for being the best dog he had seen of her sire...she was not easily motivated to do certain tasks, like dumbbells, and some would call her
stubborn, even when she did them (trained with a clicker) she did them because it was expected, not because she enjoyed it...she would always throw in her own twists LOL - like stopping on top of the A frame to peruse the crowd...

Not a stubborn dog, a very smart dog who had her own agenda but did pretty much as asked...in her own way!

Lee

[PaddyD]

If you are referring to a particular dog, how old is it? I think they go through a rebellious phase where "It's all about ME!" and you have to work extra hard to motivate them. I agree with EMOORE that stubbornness is intelligence you don't know how to deal with(yet). When they are under 4 months they are anxious to please but soon after they start to look out for themselves. They see more of the world around them and find it much more interesting than their 'parents'. They get real smart real quick and continue to grow mentally so that dealing with them is much more complicated. So we have to adapt and expand our own abilities to motivate. Also have to learn or relearn what the meaning of patience is.

[DunRingill]

When I'm working with teams at training class, it's very obvious that most of the "stubborn" behavior is really a lack of clarity....the dog either doesn't really know what the owner wants them to do, or doesn't understand that it isn't optional. Some dogs are more likely to work with you than others. My own dogs are opposite ends of the willingness spectrum.....my girls are very interested in participating in activities with me, and will offer behaviors or modify their behaviors in order to get a reward. (attention, treats, a tossed stick, a thrown leaf, whatever)

My boy, OTOH, isn't much interested in commerce. He can work brilliantly, but teaching and solidifying new behaviors is a project. Every Freakin' Time. He isn't willing to "give" in order to "get", and everything new is "Make Me." He's physical (he body slams when he gets frustrated) and he stresses UP. Many would call him stubborn, but that's not quite accurate. Once you get the behavior (some would say, once he gives in) he performs very willingly and often enthusiastically, except for retrieving....he'd really much rather go get the db and take off with it! I'm not sure what to call him...my obedience trainer calls him "Different"