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Old 02-26-2011, 04:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I know a lot of people think that I am anti-show breeding...and I am! But I am also anti-sport breeding and I think it is detrimental to the breed and I see some impacts from this type breeding that correlates with show breeding. "Lock in Prey" is a phenomena that I often see today with certain types of sport dogs, that you never saw in the breed thirty years ago. Often this type of dog is characterized by intense staring at the object to the point that the dog cannot bark. These dogs are so focused on the prey object that they do not have an ear to the handler. These type of dogs would go through a hedge to chase a ball rather than look to go around it. These dogs often have great grips and exciting long bites, but I really think they are extremes that are not balanced for the utility and versatility the breed is known for. Often, when you see these dogs and examine their pedigree you will find an abundance of Fero and the T litter Nachbarschaft just as you have Canto/Quanto in WGSL or Lance/Sundance in ASL.
My point is the breeding formula that created the Showlines seems to be taking hold in the sport world.
I do not think this healthy in the long run for the breed.
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Cliff I hope your working on that book! I want the first copy and signed of course
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I like the type of dog you describe... for when I buy a Mali. In the meantime I want my GSDs keep being thinking dogs.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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My GSD is like that lol she would crash through a brick wall to get her frisbee. She can walk by people waving food at her at the lake but stay completely focused on her ball in the water.
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Old 02-26-2011, 06:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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well Masi is frisbee obsessed but she wouldn't crash thru a brick wall to get it She most likely would try to climb it

A couple of times I've gotten her frisbee stuck on the roof of my shed, so I'll go in and get another, usually she'll have none of that, and will sit by the shed looking at me, looking at the roof, look at me,,like "ok you threw it you get it"

Thankfully I haven't experienced the "lock on prey" with any of my gsd's, where they become so focused on something that I'm tuned out. I would prefer not to be "tuned" out when it comes to anything.
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Old 02-26-2011, 06:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I remember when we had over 250 dogs at Ft. Benning, Ga. After three years you get to know the traits of all the dogs there,(especially since on weekends you worked alone and had to feed and water all of them). Anyway, as I think on it we didn't have any that had prey drive to THAT extent. We had the narc dogs and bomb dogs(aggressive method of training) who had to have strong prey drive, and of course many many other specialty dogs,(Sentry, tracker, Scout, Body recovery, Mine and Tunnel, Demo, etc), but none of these dogs were this kind of over the top in drive.
I mean if we look at it the drive itself,(prey), is used to hunt, with chasing and gripping as offshoots of the behavoir. It is also beneficial in herding in keeping sheep in flock(chasin) and sometimes having to exert influence(gripping). Still, this drive was always under the control of the commands of the Shepherd and the dog's discernment/disgression.
This breed is the ultimate example of the dog working with man in sync to perform complex operations, thus becoming the versatile utility dog extraordinaire. I do not think these dogs exhibit this kind of working with man temperament, unless it is hammered into the dog with things like prong collars or electric; and they also require "almost" a master trainer to get them to certain points.
To me this isn't "Shepherd" temperament.
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Old 02-26-2011, 06:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Jax can be 'locked in prey' when it comes to an animal. I watched her shoot right thru an electric fence to go chase goats. She'll crash through anything to chase a cat (that isn't one of hers). She's so deep in prey mode she can't hear me yelling for her. Drives me nuts! She came from an animal shelter as a puppy so I don't know what her background is. But if this is the case, then I would say that prey drive has leaked into the BYB's and is going out to people that are completely unprepared for it.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:48 PM   #8 (permalink)
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One other thing as I reflect on the breed today, the over the top prey drive does not stop the dog from being a great family pet!!! Why??? Because the nerve strength of the dogs allows the dog to be fine in the house and in domestic situations. I must reiterate this before it reinforces some people's misconception that high drive dogs can't be great family dogs.
Where I am coming from is if the sport breeders keep using dogs from these popular lines and breed for more and more drive; then nerve base and other health issues will become problematic. The show people couldn't see what they were creating with only using select lines until they were so deep into it; it was all they knew, and were addicted and unwilling to bring balance back to the equation. (This is why I respect Andaka for using DDR lines in her breedingand opening up genetic diversity). This is why many savy sport breeders are mixing Czech lines with West lines. Some of the early foundation sport dogs in Belgium/Holland had influxes of DDR dogs in the nineties. But it seems today GS breeders are often trying to "run with the Mals". This comes with a price,IMO.
Okay, I'm off my soapbox, but I think this issue is worthy of dialogue and analysis. The INTENT of breeding will take you off the right path even with tiles and Certs, that's why there is such a disparity between WGSL and WGWL. Both have titles and Certs but many SL are breeding for beauty, and many WL are breeding for points, and they all should be breeding for utility.! Peace!
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
I know a lot of people think that I am anti-show breeding...and I am! But I am also anti-sport breeding and I think it is detrimental to the breed and I see some impacts from this type breeding that correlates with show breeding. "Lock in Prey" is a phenomena that I often see today with certain types of sport dogs, that you never saw in the breed thirty years ago. Often this type of dog is characterized by intense staring at the object to the point that the dog cannot bark. These dogs are so focused on the prey object that they do not have an ear to the handler. These type of dogs would go through a hedge to chase a ball rather than look to go around it. These dogs often have great grips and exciting long bites, but I really think they are extremes that are not balanced for the utility and versatility the breed is known for. Often, when you see these dogs and examine their pedigree you will find an abundance of Fero and the T litter Nachbarschaft just as you have Canto/Quanto in WGSL or Lance/Sundance in ASL.
My point is the breeding formula that created the Showlines seems to be taking hold in the sport world.
I do not think this healthy in the long run for the breed.

How come I am a villain when I say this???? Couldn't agree with you more.........

Lee
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:56 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Lee, I am really glad that you've been active on the board again.
I think the dog I am working right now is not a prey monster, but has plenty of drive. He is a thinker and balanced....if only my handling skills were better to do him justice.
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