German Shepherds Forum banner

Locked in Prey

30K views 161 replies 41 participants last post by  GSDElsa 
#1 ·
I know a lot of people think that I am anti-show breeding...and I am! But I am also anti-sport breeding and I think it is detrimental to the breed and I see some impacts from this type breeding that correlates with show breeding. "Lock in Prey" is a phenomena that I often see today with certain types of sport dogs, that you never saw in the breed thirty years ago. Often this type of dog is characterized by intense staring at the object to the point that the dog cannot bark. These dogs are so focused on the prey object that they do not have an ear to the handler. These type of dogs would go through a hedge to chase a ball rather than look to go around it. These dogs often have great grips and exciting long bites, but I really think they are extremes that are not balanced for the utility and versatility the breed is known for. Often, when you see these dogs and examine their pedigree you will find an abundance of Fero and the T litter Nachbarschaft just as you have Canto/Quanto in WGSL or Lance/Sundance in ASL.
My point is the breeding formula that created the Showlines seems to be taking hold in the sport world.
I do not think this healthy in the long run for the breed.
 
#2 ·
Cliff I hope your working on that book! I want the first copy and signed of course:)
 
#3 ·
I like the type of dog you describe... for when I buy a Mali. In the meantime I want my GSDs keep being thinking dogs.
 
#4 ·
My GSD is like that lol she would crash through a brick wall to get her frisbee. She can walk by people waving food at her at the lake but stay completely focused on her ball in the water.
 
#5 ·
well Masi is frisbee obsessed but she wouldn't crash thru a brick wall to get it:) She most likely would try to climb it:)

A couple of times I've gotten her frisbee stuck on the roof of my shed, so I'll go in and get another, usually she'll have none of that, and will sit by the shed looking at me, looking at the roof, look at me,,like "ok you threw it you get it":)

Thankfully I haven't experienced the "lock on prey" with any of my gsd's, where they become so focused on something that I'm tuned out. I would prefer not to be "tuned" out when it comes to anything.
 
#6 ·
I remember when we had over 250 dogs at Ft. Benning, Ga. After three years you get to know the traits of all the dogs there,(especially since on weekends you worked alone and had to feed and water all of them). Anyway, as I think on it we didn't have any that had prey drive to THAT extent. We had the narc dogs and bomb dogs(aggressive method of training) who had to have strong prey drive, and of course many many other specialty dogs,(Sentry, tracker, Scout, Body recovery, Mine and Tunnel, Demo, etc), but none of these dogs were this kind of over the top in drive.
I mean if we look at it the drive itself,(prey), is used to hunt, with chasing and gripping as offshoots of the behavoir. It is also beneficial in herding in keeping sheep in flock(chasin) and sometimes having to exert influence(gripping). Still, this drive was always under the control of the commands of the Shepherd and the dog's discernment/disgression.
This breed is the ultimate example of the dog working with man in sync to perform complex operations, thus becoming the versatile utility dog extraordinaire. I do not think these dogs exhibit this kind of working with man temperament, unless it is hammered into the dog with things like prong collars or electric; and they also require "almost" a master trainer to get them to certain points.
To me this isn't "Shepherd" temperament.
 
#7 ·
Jax can be 'locked in prey' when it comes to an animal. I watched her shoot right thru an electric fence to go chase goats. She'll crash through anything to chase a cat (that isn't one of hers). She's so deep in prey mode she can't hear me yelling for her. Drives me nuts! She came from an animal shelter as a puppy so I don't know what her background is. But if this is the case, then I would say that prey drive has leaked into the BYB's and is going out to people that are completely unprepared for it.
 
#8 ·
One other thing as I reflect on the breed today, the over the top prey drive does not stop the dog from being a great family pet!!! Why??? Because the nerve strength of the dogs allows the dog to be fine in the house and in domestic situations. I must reiterate this before it reinforces some people's misconception that high drive dogs can't be great family dogs.
Where I am coming from is if the sport breeders keep using dogs from these popular lines and breed for more and more drive; then nerve base and other health issues will become problematic. The show people couldn't see what they were creating with only using select lines until they were so deep into it; it was all they knew, and were addicted and unwilling to bring balance back to the equation. (This is why I respect Andaka for using DDR lines in her breedingand opening up genetic diversity). This is why many savy sport breeders are mixing Czech lines with West lines. Some of the early foundation sport dogs in Belgium/Holland had influxes of DDR dogs in the nineties. But it seems today GS breeders are often trying to "run with the Mals". This comes with a price,IMO.
Okay, I'm off my soapbox, but I think this issue is worthy of dialogue and analysis. The INTENT of breeding will take you off the right path even with tiles and Certs, that's why there is such a disparity between WGSL and WGWL. Both have titles and Certs but many SL are breeding for beauty, and many WL are breeding for points, and they all should be breeding for utility.! Peace!
 
#9 ·
How come I am a villain when I say this????:D:D:D:D Couldn't agree with you more.........

Lee
 
#10 ·
Lee, I am really glad that you've been active on the board again.
I think the dog I am working right now is not a prey monster, but has plenty of drive. He is a thinker and balanced....if only my handling skills were better to do him justice.
 
#11 ·
Michael Ellis talks about the balance you are describing in one of his DVDs. I agree with you and I have to fight that feeling that Minka isn't "energetic" enough when in actuality she is intense but not to the point of losing her awareness. Funny you should bring this up because this morning I was having a game of fetch with the Lab and Minka. The Lab has that ball drive that is crazy over the top. And half the time he looses track of what's going on (I have two balls in play since Minka is so fast). She knows where both balls are all the time and knows if he missed his. She will grab her ball and run over to his, pointing it out to him. Even in the dark she knows where the balls are, and he is absolutely lost when he can't see the balls. There are times he is unaware that i even threw the ball when we are playing in the dark. And I've thought to myself that he might have that intense focus that everybody seems to like but i'd rather retain the balance of drive and thinking. Cool. Your post has made me feel like Minka is on the right track.
 
#12 ·
I've had about 3 GSDs that were "locked in prey". My first was Minerva. She would obscess over squirrels. She probably caught about 40 throughout her 14 years of life. But I was very successful in teaching her NOT to run into the street after a squirrel. She was the most obedient Shepherd I've ever known. (I found her living under some bleachers in a park.)

I was walking her off-leash (as I always did with her) and we were in a city park which had perimeter city streets. She spotted a squirrel and darted. The squirrel ran into traffic on a busy street and I called "MINERVA" once and she stopped DEAD at the curb. She knew that she was NEVER to run into the street no matter how bad she wanted that squirrel. I am still amazed how she figured that one out.

Minerva was an exceptional dog. I would NEVER attempt to allow any of my other shepherds to even come close to a street off leash. Although, I do feel that I am working on that with my London. He is VERY focused on me.

He is heavy into chasing deer. I have taught him NEVER to lunge at ANYTHING while on the leash. Simply becuase he almost ripped my arm out of the socket when he was aobut 9 months. So the other day, he was on leash and 4 huge deer ran right in front of us. He did not even give a slight pull. He looked at them and then "left it alone." I was VERY proud (and happy that my arm was not jolted!).
 
#13 ·
Hey Lee,
Its all good!!...I have the show people and the sport people that look at my posts with annoyance. I've even had my toughness and confidence questioned....Big lol....I love this breed, fortunately I have seen, as have you, a shifting of the paradigm of the breed. I am so glad you have also seen this shifting....doesn't make us anything but observant based on experience.
I just had an opportunity to import a male puppy out of Mac vd Kine. He's a dog I like the genetics on and have commented on in this forum in the past. But after carefully examining the breeding; the puppy would have been like 4,5-4 ,5 on the T litter Nacbarschaft. I declined, it was just too much for my taste. Oh Well...and I really like Mac's breeding, but it would have to be with a female that opens up the genetics. I try to practice what I preach.
 
#21 ·
It is exceedingly hard to avoid more Fero - having had 3 Fero free females, it is very difficult to find a Fero free male...


When I first started in the sport, I was at a training session, and a pup - 8, 9 mo old from a Fero daughter was backtied watching some other dogs work, the pup was just over the top prey, screaming, shrieking thrashing - the trainer paused - looked at her - and said "where is Fero in her pedigree?" This trainer had had a Fero son from Tiekerhook. Since then, I have watched that same extreme behavior so many times....

It is a two faced coin - the genetics and the training

Lee
 
#16 ·
Art,
The training is part, but the over use of Fero and the T litter Nacbarschaft is genetics. Go to any contemporary west working dog of today and see if Fero isn't there multiple times. Its hard to find any Fero free, and now they are starting to make it numerous generations. The bottleneck genepool leads to problems no matter what the lines.
 
#17 ·
Cliff, I noticed this too with a dog in our club.

He has Fero on the top and bottom - he is so fixed (not just focused, but fixed) on that ball that when it is out in play or for reward he doesn't see or hear anything else - his handler included.

I want a ball (prey) motivated dog, but not like that.

I posted a few weeks ago about what I was looking for and I specifically mentioned "not over the top in prey" because that is what I am seeing. I want high prey drive for training but not so over the top that I am less important to the dog that the item they are fixated on.

Besides Fero and the T litter, what other dogs/lines would you consider to be like this?
 
#34 ·
This is where my brain went when I saw this topic.

Dogs will approach protection work in prey because that's how they've been taught to view it. The impulse for people to get a high prey drive puppy and start it immediately in prey puppy circles, starting prey drive building exercises with a flirt pole, create these locked in prey problems before the dog is even 5 months old. And a dog with good nerves will be more likely to be locked in prey because from what I've seen when people go to create suspicion in that older dog to bring out the defense the strong nerved confident prey dog just seems to accept the punishment without ever making it into defense.

My experiences with my high prey drive dogs with low thresholds has been NOT to encourage prey drive because it already exists in spades- Why on Earth would I need more? This doesn't take master training- what it takes is NO training. :) And when the puppy is old enough- teach it protection as protection, not as a game. Balanced training will show a more balanced dog. There are several trainers I know that prefer not to work puppies in protection. When you look at 2, 2 year old dogs- both raised with the intent of working, but one that was started at 8 weeks in protection and one that was started at a year...there really won't be much difference in where the dogs are in terms of the training but I would bet most of the time that the dog started later will have less problems than the dog started young.

I agree that there should be a goal of balance in the breeding of dogs, that constantly throwing together low threshold high prey dog to high prey dog will result in something so crazy that it is practically unworkable...but I can only think of 1 dog that I've seen was so over the top it was difficult to manage. Most of the other "prey" dogs I've seen were more on the created side. And I really don't think you can lay all the blame on the back of Fero. My 3-3 Fero male certainly has plenty of prey, but he also has a lot of fight in his guard work, and none of the screaming out of his mind obsessiveness. I can understand why maybe you wouldn't want to add any more...but I think newbies reading this might jump to Fero=Bad.
 
#19 ·
Do you think that starting the dog too early would be one way the helpers are encouraging this? Focusing on prey from such a young age then trying to get the dog to switch gears and work out of defense once they mature?
 
#25 ·
Art, my apologies...you are 100% right...the training of today and the results trying to be achieved(long flying bite and full unmovable grips, flashy obedience), definitely push people to breed to dogs that further these elements.
Its funny, its hard to have integrity in breeding in my opinion. I see people who are practitioners of the specialties,(show,sport,pet,money), who either don't understand this or are so caught up in it they put the specialty over the well being of the breed. And though many are sincere people, and some knowledgable, they CANNOT be objective about what is being produced much less go against it. Oh Well
 
#26 · (Edited)
I think this topic has been discussed more than a few times. I know I have made almost all the comments in this thread in years past.

Here is the truth of the matter though. There is no market for a German Shepherd Dog any longer. The market is for sport dogs, or show dogs. People looking for "pets" are also drawn to those places. If you breed German Shepherds, no one wants them. They are, once again, too attracted to what is on the papers and not attracted enough in what is in the dog .

People offer up videos constantly of GSDs who behave like Malinois and the comments afterward are all positive. People are excited and addicted to flash and the only way to get that flash, ( at least in the realm of the average trainer's ability), is with toys and treats. Therefore, you have to have a dog who will respond to that. When the dog doesn't, he is no good according to the many SchH experts who only know one way to train. The dogs who truely DO want to work for their handlers are discarded for the new "jacked up" model.

Just like I did with the show dogs, I have talked about it for over a decade now, both on boards and to people at clubs. Most of it has fallen on deaf ears. I am just living in the past. I read someone on the PDB boasting about the ability of certain trainers and saying that "the sport" had passed by some of the older, more well known trainers. It was typical for what has taken over SchH now but what struck me is that SchH has not just passed by trainers, it has passed by the German Shepherd. It no longer suits a real GSD, it is for Malinois. To be clear, it used to be especially suited for the abilities of the GSD but the changes in the rules, judging and the training, has turned it into something that is well beneath the abilities of a GSD. People are not doing Schutzhund any longer, even if they think they are.
 
#27 ·
I agree with everything said. It does seem that there are a lot of dogs out there that can go "either way" with their genetics...be prey monsters or not. But that a lot of people are training with the prey monster in mind...and choosing not to bring out the defense in the dogs even if the dog is perfectly capable.

So here's food for thought. I went out to a Ringsport club that is forming near me yesterday to watch dogs work (I might join if they let me go do OB there and let the local SchH people do some bitework during the better weather because it's about 5 minutes from my house). I have heard people repeatedly say how much more "real" Ringsport is than SchH, even if it it gear towards those prey-monster Mals. I'm sure there are many ways to train and opinions on the matter......but those dogs are the WORST case of "locked in prey" that I've ever seen! After asking when they were going to bring in defense work with the one dog, I was told "never"...it's just one big prey game to him. The dog I watched was definitely talented and I really liked him...but I went in there thinking I was going to see a sport much different than what I saw. I guess I just don't see how much "pressure" is on the dog hanging off the leg of the decoy by first front two teeth and the decoy shooting a gun at him when the dog is treating it all like a crazy fun game....

I'm sure there are different approaches people take to doing Ringsport. This is probably one. Some of the excersices looked liek a blast, though. The "basket guarding" is something fun and the backwards heeling transport looks pretty wild.

I'm curious if the "always work in prey" is totally common with ringsport since it is so Mal centric?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top