Coatie Question

GSDElsa · 02-20-2011, 05:27 PM

How common is this?

I was looking through some progeny of a dog, and one of the litters appears (based on pics) THREE long coats in a 5 puppy litter. Neither mom or dad are coaties, and glancing quickly through pictures of progeny of both, I don't see any others.

Is this common at all? Thought it was interesting.

Lucy Dog · 02-20-2011, 05:33 PM

I'm definitely no expert on breeding or genetics, but based off of what i've read, all the sire and dam have to do is have the long coat gene to pass it on. Neither actually have to be long coats, but as long as they have those genes in their dna, it can be passed on to the puppies.

On observation alone, it's a lot more common with show lines than with working lines, but i don't have any numbers to back that up.

I know there was a good website or thread (can't remember which) explaining all of this in terms of genetics. Which genes are dominant, recessive, etc. and how they're passed on, but I'll have to look around for that.

**Chris Wild** · 02-20-2011, 05:38 PM

It's a simple recessive gene. 2 stock coats can produce coatie puppies if both carry the recessive. The old Punnett Square method says in that case 25% of the litter would be homozygous stock coat, 50% heterozygous stock coat (so normal coat but carrying long coat as recessive) and 25% would be homozygous long coat, and thus would be long coats. So statistically, 1 out of 4 would be a coatie. But genes frequently pay not attention to statistics, so 3 out of 5 is certainly a possibility.

This may not have shown up in previous progeny because the other mates they were bred to did not carry the long coat recessive, so it couldn't be expressed in any pups, or because the genes just happened to fall the other way and not produce any coats just like this litter produced an overabundance of them compared to what would be predicted.

Lucy Dog · 02-20-2011, 05:41 PM

Chris.... do you get many long coats? It seems they're much more common with the show lines than with the working lines. Any reason why that is?

GSDElsa · 02-20-2011, 05:41 PM

Yes, I know they don't have to be long coats to pass it on, but I'm not sure I've seen 3 out of 5 puppies in a litter be coaties when the parents are not.

I know I've seen the genetics of LC's before, but don't recall where I've seen it. I thought it was a pretty recessive trait.

GSDElsa · 02-20-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

It's a simple recessive gene. 2 stock coats can produce coatie puppies if both carry the recessive. The old Punnett Square method says in that case 25% of the litter would be homozygous stock coat, 50% heterozygous stock coat (so normal coat but carrying long coat as recessive) and 25% would be homozygous long coat, and thus would be long coats. So statistically, 1 out of 4 would be a coatie. But genes frequently pay not attention to statistics, so 3 out of 5 is certainly a possibility.

Thanks, you posted while I was posting again. I couldn't remember what it was considered--I thought it was a recessive gene.

Does seem like genetic stats didn't agree with that one in what was produced!

I just haven't seem that many in one litter before.

Emoore · 02-20-2011, 06:21 PM

yTechnically, each individual pup has a 25% chance of being homozygous stock coat, 50% chance of being heterozygous for stock coat, and 25% chance of being homozygous long coats.

It's entirely possible for the whole litter to fal under one of the 25%'s.

I'm currently slogging through Biology for health-care majors.

**JKlatsky** · 02-20-2011, 06:29 PM

I have a friend that bought a puppy from a WGWL litter with 2 stock coated parents. 8 puppies- 4 were coats, 4 were stock- although 2 of those 4 were pretty longish stock coats as well.

wolfstraum · 02-20-2011, 06:58 PM

I think most show lines carry the coat gene - also I know alot of SL breeders think the thick lush desireable coat may be lost if the long coat gene is eliminated...and I agree that it is more common in Euro SL than WL....I have only had them in one litter so far....3 of 7 males were coated....

Lee

**Cassidy's Mom** · 02-20-2011, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucy Dog

Chris.... do you get many long coats? It seems they're much more common with the show lines than with the working lines. Any reason why that is?

This little fuzzy girl is from Chris's recent litter: Jinx

02-20-2011, 05:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
GSDElsa Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Central, NY Posts: 3,706	Coatie Question How common is this? I was looking through some progeny of a dog, and one of the litters appears (based on pics) THREE long coats in a 5 puppy litter. Neither mom or dad are coaties, and glancing quickly through pictures of progeny of both, I don't see any others. Is this common at all? Thought it was interesting. __________________ Justine, mom to: - Elsa - BrightStar Rescue - "Da Pookins" - Medo Aritar Bastet - "The Beast From The East" Last edited by GSDElsa; 02-20-2011 at 05:29 PM.

02-20-2011, 05:33 PM	#2 (permalink)
Lucy Dog Crowned Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 5,179	I'm definitely no expert on breeding or genetics, but based off of what i've read, all the sire and dam have to do is have the long coat gene to pass it on. Neither actually have to be long coats, but as long as they have those genes in their dna, it can be passed on to the puppies. On observation alone, it's a lot more common with show lines than with working lines, but i don't have any numbers to back that up. I know there was a good website or thread (can't remember which) explaining all of this in terms of genetics. Which genes are dominant, recessive, etc. and how they're passed on, but I'll have to look around for that. __________________ Paul

02-20-2011, 05:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
Chris Wild Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 12,604	It's a simple recessive gene. 2 stock coats can produce coatie puppies if both carry the recessive. The old Punnett Square method says in that case 25% of the litter would be homozygous stock coat, 50% heterozygous stock coat (so normal coat but carrying long coat as recessive) and 25% would be homozygous long coat, and thus would be long coats. So statistically, 1 out of 4 would be a coatie. But genes frequently pay not attention to statistics, so 3 out of 5 is certainly a possibility. This may not have shown up in previous progeny because the other mates they were bred to did not carry the long coat recessive, so it couldn't be expressed in any pups, or because the genes just happened to fall the other way and not produce any coats just like this litter produced an overabundance of them compared to what would be predicted. __________________ *Wildhaus Kennels* Kaiser ~ SchH3 CGC TDI (HOT) Raven ~ SchH3 AWD2 PD1 P1 PA T1 UCD URO2 CGC TT (B/HOT) Della ~ SchHA TR1 PD1 P1 PA T1 URO2 CGC TT (B/HOT) Wulf ~ SchH1 PD1 P1 T1 URO2 CGC TT (B/HOT) Heidi ~ BH CD UCD RN URO1 (B/HOT) Jazz ~ Superpup In Training

02-20-2011, 05:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lucy Dog Crowned Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 5,179	Chris.... do you get many long coats? It seems they're much more common with the show lines than with the working lines. Any reason why that is? __________________ Paul

02-20-2011, 05:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
GSDElsa Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Central, NY Posts: 3,706	Yes, I know they don't have to be long coats to pass it on, but I'm not sure I've seen 3 out of 5 puppies in a litter be coaties when the parents are not. I know I've seen the genetics of LC's before, but don't recall where I've seen it. I thought it was a pretty recessive trait. __________________ Justine, mom to: - Elsa - BrightStar Rescue - "Da Pookins" - Medo Aritar Bastet - "The Beast From The East"

02-20-2011, 06:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
Emoore Crowned Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North DFW, TX Posts: 9,214	yTechnically, each individual pup has a 25% chance of being homozygous stock coat, 50% chance of being heterozygous for stock coat, and 25% chance of being homozygous long coats. It's entirely possible for the whole litter to fal under one of the 25%'s. I'm currently slogging through Biology for health-care majors. __________________ Rocky vom Backyard- 10 years young Kopper vom Felssclucht Bach - 17 months At the Bridge: Cash van der Animal Shelter 2006-2010

02-20-2011, 06:29 PM	#8 (permalink)
JKlatsky Moderator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Riverview, FL Posts: 2,985	I have a friend that bought a puppy from a WGWL litter with 2 stock coated parents. 8 puppies- 4 were coats, 4 were stock- although 2 of those 4 were pretty longish stock coats as well. __________________ Argos vom Eisernen Loewen VPG1, CGC, TC 3-3-07 Bianka vom Eisernen Loewen BH, CGC, TC 1-3-08 Cade vom Eisernen Loewen CGC 3-25-09 D'Artagnan (Tag) vom Eisernen Loewen 2-2-10 G Aiko von Burkndeiros SchH 3, IPO3, FH, TC, KKL2 9-17-02

02-20-2011, 06:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
wolfstraum Crowned Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: PA Posts: 7,088	I think most show lines carry the coat gene - also I know alot of SL breeders think the thick lush desireable coat may be lost if the long coat gene is eliminated...and I agree that it is more common in Euro SL than WL....I have only had them in one litter so far....3 of 7 males were coated.... Lee __________________ Csabre Sch1, Hexe Sch2, Bengal, Kyra, Kira & Kougar v Wolfstraum ~ Basha Sch3, Ghost Sch3 - Danger Sch1 SAR - ATB/Ret - Kyra, Sch3, Alice Sch1, Kelsey, Fenja Sch3 wolfstraum.net

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