Dear Experienced Breeders

[DanielleKeith]

My end goal while I am in Germany for the next several years, is to put together a strong breeding program/stock to bring home to the u.s.

I am a strong advocate for the longhaired shepherds, and I am very excited about the acceptance of longcoats in the s.v. and for breeding. I would like to know if there is anyone out there that breeds specifically longhaired shepherds and what you think about standards, lines etc. My boy now is of West German show lines. I see that a lot of people believe these are not good lines, however, I completely disagree. These dogs are ALSATIANS, and West Germany/east france is Alsatia. Some imported/overbred/U.S. agenda western german show lines I can DEFINITELY see as schlect, however, over here, it is quite different. You would be hard pressed to convince anyone that a DDR or Czech working dog is any more capable or healthy. The top lines are not as varied over here as they are in the states, and ALL of the breeders/handlers/trainers that I meet believe that all GSD that are well bred are capable regardless of if they come from Rheinland-pfalz, baden-wurrtemburg, bavaria, saxony etc.

I also think that it's ridiculous to assume that the source of these dogs (Germany/Czech) are breeding weak dogs just for beauty purposes. I don't buy it. There are extremely strict conformation/health standards that a dog must meet not to mention the fact that they have to PROVE themselves on the field. So..... a "working" dog from the east that achieves a Sch3 Kk1 is a better/healtheir dog than a Sch3 Kk1 dog from ALSATIA?... Don't buy it. I think the U.S. is overbreeding the dogs, and blaming the neuroticism and bad health on the germans.

All that being said. I would like to talk to longhair "people" who have a breeding agenda. I will eventually breed longhair exclusively and will be using a mixture of lines from different areas. My dogs will be proven on the field and in the house. I will breed dogs that are of the soundest mind, but will work with the best of the breed. Any thoughts or ideas from other longies?

[AbbyK9]

Not relevant to your question, but just FYI there is no such place as "Alsatia". It's called the Alsace (well, Alsace-Lorraine, technically).

[KLCecil]

My girl is a Long Stock Coat and I LOVE her I got her from a Breeder that only breeds Long Stock Coats. She is of German lines (1/2 working 1/2 Show) and I believe that she is a very good cross. I do wish a stronger rear and a broader front in the German shepherd, I also prefer level top lines not sloped or roached and feel that would be something to improve upon in the long coats as there are very few good breeders of the long coat German Shepherd. As long as everything checks out (heathwise and in the field) with Jaina and I find the male to improve on her weaknesses I will be breeding her. I feel she is a great foundation female so far for what I feel is a good and healthy representation of the breed.
So yes I feel that you have a good plan as we need good breeders in our "Variety" of German Shepherds.

Here is Jaina's pedigree;

Cataclysm von Dagg - German shepherd dog

[GSDElsa]

My opinion? Any time you are breeding for a specific recessive trait, something else will likely suffer for it in your breeding program.

[SchDDR]

While I don't think longhair should be a *fault*, I question the soundness, as GSDElsa said, of breeding for a specific recessive trait.

The GSD is a working breed, and the ideal working coat is the stock coat. [This is not me judging your preference for a long coat, please continue reading.]

For this reason, the gene pool of long-haired dogs is narrower, as breeders [especially workinglines] have selected against dogs carrying those genes. Intentionally breeding only those dogs narrows it further. At some point, you're creating a very small gene pool with all the risks inherent.

I appreciate your fondness for a specific type of GSD, but why not simply be a GSD breeder who breeds for the total GSD, and doesn't discriminate against a long coat, rather than breed specifically for it? If your intent is to breed workingline dogs to appeal to a working market, you're liable to encounter serious skepticism when breeding for a superficial trait, as to many potential buyers, that sort of breeding is a giant red flag.

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by DanielleKeith

My end goal while I am in Germany for the next several years, is to put together a strong breeding program/stock to bring home to the u.s.

That is a good goal - please keep an open mind - go to both types of clubs and WATCH and LEARN - follow a few dogs from youngster to finished product....train one yourself....then take that experience and base your opinions on that...

I am a strong advocate for the longhaired shepherds, and I am very excited about the acceptance of longcoats in the s.v. and for breeding. I would like to know if there is anyone out there that breeds specifically longhaired shepherds and what you think about standards, lines etc.

The longcoat is a recessive that seems to be 'linked' to other desirable qualities....breeding with longcoat as a primary focus/priority is just as dangerous as breeding for extreme color, extreme food drive, extreme angulation etc.....the whole key to breeding is BALANCING all the characteristics, finding complementary (similar) and compensatory traits in breeding pairs and having the luck to make it work!

My boy now is of West German show lines. I see that a lot of people believe these are not good lines, however, I completely disagree. These dogs are ALSATIANS, and West Germany/east france is Alsatia.

Sorry - it is a historical fact that the English coined the term 'Alsatians' in the period of WWI/II as they liked the breed of dog - but hated the Germans...there is no such thing as a separate 'Alsatian Shepherd'...see above for proper geographical terminology

Some imported/overbred/U.S. agenda western german show lines I can DEFINITELY see as schlect, however, over here, it is quite different.

The info you get is always going to be a product of the experience of the people you are getting it from!!!! If anywhere is "overbred" - it is the massive machine of the SV showline dog in Germany....travel a bit further - go to some of the "kennels" where 20-30 females live in crates in little more than a garage 22 hours a day....except when with litters...

You would be hard pressed to convince anyone that a DDR or Czech working dog is any more capable or healthy. The top lines are not as varied over here as they are in the states, and ALL of the breeders/handlers/trainers that I meet believe that all GSD that are well bred are capable regardless of if they come from Rheinland-pfalz, baden-wurrtemburg, bavaria, saxony etc.

ahh - the consummate sales people!!!! I believe that the last figures I saw were that the highlines were around 80% of the dogs registered, the DDR is gone - only a handful of kennels keeping the gene pool alive, and the Germans I know (judges and breeders) just don't trust the pedigrees of any Iron Curtain country's breeding programs....and they truly truly truly BELIEVE what they say - all evidence to the contrary -

AGAIN - keep an open mind - GO to the Sieger show - watch the bitework - go the the BSP - watch that....there will be WL dogs in the Sieger show....never at the top as they are not the style/fashion of the majority - but you will rarely see a highline dog make it through the elimination process to even QUALIFY for the BSP - and if one does - it is a very low V dog - a fluke or a dog whose breeder was trying to breed performance back into his lines - the genetics on a see saw for beauty/working... Quit listening to the propaganda and LEARN for yourself!!!

I also think that it's ridiculous to assume that the source of these dogs (Germany/Czech) are breeding weak dogs just for beauty purposes. I don't buy it. There are extremely strict conformation/health standards that a dog must meet not to mention the fact that they have to PROVE themselves on the field. So..... a "working" dog from the east that achieves a Sch3 Kk1 is a better/healtheir dog than a Sch3 Kk1 dog from ALSATIA?... Don't buy it. I think the U.S. is overbreeding the dogs, and blaming the neuroticism and bad health on the germans.

do yourself a favor - go buy a highline pup from the "best" breeder you can find who will sell you one - go buy a pup from a working line kennel like Mohnwiese or Wanner Hoehen - train them both - dedicate yourself to it - put VPG3 on BOTH dogs KKL both dogs....then read this again....

Forget the distinction of Czech/DDR - just step back and say Highline and Working lines....there are finer points in the subsets - you are jumping from A to K without going B - C - D etc.....DO SOMETHING rather than absorb the sales pitch propaganda - it is NOT an overnight process....it is NOT what is done in the USA - the dogs here are all imports/lines - using the most popular from Europe generally - there are no "bad" pedigrees LOL LOL because almost everyone breeds from "good dogs"...

How many dogs have YOU trained? lived with? how many working line clubs have you spent serious amounts of time at watching the training, studying the pedigrees of the dogs you can see....you have a terrific opportunity and seem to be letting yourself be spoonfed rather than using the opportunity to learn...

All that being said. I would like to talk to longhair "people" who have a breeding agenda. I will eventually breed longhair exclusively and will be using a mixture of lines from different areas. My dogs will be proven on the field and in the house. I will breed dogs that are of the soundest mind, but will work with the best of the breed. Any thoughts or ideas from other longies?

anytime you put one factor on top of your priority list - you are doomed to a downward spiral IMO - the priority list should be a triangle - with no top - at every angle you look, there are 3 major concerns - STRUCTURE (form follows function - my favorite quote of Frank Lloyd Wright) the physical platform, including health, hips/elbows, backs!!!, to do the job needed - TEMPERAMENT - the mental ability to learn, to live normally and safely as a companion while allowing the dog to fulfill it's stated purpose for being bred - WORKING ABILITY - the drive to do a job - whether herding, SAR, Narcotics, Bomb, Patrol K9 - the ability to learn the job, to perform the job, to be a real dog as needed - as this breed was developed to be a dog for all work - not just a herder specifically, and the Schutzhund test was developed to demonstrate the ability to do the work prior to the dog being used to breed....many many many dogs get SchH3/VPG3/IPO3 - but at this point, it is not the key it once was to the character of the dog.

These three qualities can be expanded of course - and should be - but all three should carry weight in any breeding program!! No "type" is perfect - especially when you ask the fans of another "type" - and everyone has different ideas of what constitutes the ideals of each element of my triangle...


Do yourself a favor - spend your time seeing all facets of the breed before you make blanket statements of fact.

Lee

[wolfstraum]

the above post is only addressing the breeding of Euro/German lines in the US - there are tons of other types of breeders....

As far as the lines here used - in WL I guess that 95% of the dogs out there are bred on Fero or Mink or both in the pedigree- maybe 20% have Lord (DDR) - try to find something not Czech bred free of all three!!!! Asko/Olex/Nick/Vito W - all 3 more contemporary producers - tons of that blood here....

Having a female who I cannot take to those three lines (for many reasons) I know what is available and being bred.

The US breeders of Euro lines are only a fraction of the dogs bred in the US and registered AKC - the majority of GSDs are commercial breeders of mixed types wtih AKC showline breeders the bigger share than the Euro breeders....so realize that the numbers of registrations here are not a valid part of your opinion of 'overbreeding' when you are comparing Germany/Europe to USA...

Lee

[holland]

Not a breeder but I have seen a long hair I would get a puppy from if it was ever bred -it was a really awesome working dog-but agree with what was already said about breeding specfically long coats

[Emoore]

Not a breeder but it's a simple fact of biology that when you select for one recessive trait, you narrow your gene pool to a frighteningly small level and are guaranteed to have other, less desireable recessive traits produced as well.

[lhczth]

Lee, good post (referring to the first one).

To the OP. The best advice I can give to you is say less and listen more. You have a GREAT opportunity being presented to you. I would love to be able to spend a long period of time in Europe surrounded by excellent German Shepherd Dogs, watching them in training and picking the brains of their handlers and breeders. Heck, I would be in heaven just being surrounded by so many GSD. Next month I am going for 5 or days. I envy your chance to be there longer.