Registration...for the sake of discussion.

[Delilah's_Human]

Ok I was talking about my unpapered pup on another forum and they went off the deep end then finally asked well why not just spay her to get her reg WITH AKC or UKC so I could work her toward a title or championship?

Now lets say I spay her and I achieve said award. now what? all I see when stuff like that happens are horses like Scamper (one of the top barrel horses) and Gem Twist (world renowned stadium jumper). Im using horses here because im not familliar with dogs, but both were gelded (nuetered) when young or because they were unable to get papers (like Scamper) then turn out to be outstanding in some field then you miss a genetic chance to improve on a breed. not that its my puppy who is gonna be that, yeah right im not that nieve, lol. I needed to state that so no one would get the wrong impression.

my point and stance is more principle than anything. I feel a paper should not judge an animal on their worth. I think through competing, breeding (linage), testing and other things should qulify them as acceptable breeding animals, rather than a single piece of paper as Ive seen MANY MANY poor quality AKC dogs.

people talk about the good of the breed. lets say by chance this dog here... (I picked him mostly randomly as an already somewhat achieved show dog with obvious future potential)
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ.../5/585641.html



was sold as a pup and the papers get lost by said owner or the owner dies, dog is sold rehomed but the papers dont go with but liniage is still known.

now (this dog is stunning) is that dog now just another 'should be nuetered male'? an when you do show him in sch and in conformation and he blows people and dogs out of the water, what now? you just lost a genetic link to something that could of improved a breed all for a 10 cent piece of paper to say "its registered". Ive seen some amazing registered horses gelded as foals then go on to be extravigant examples of the breed, years of hard breeding, then lost, because some dummy couldnt be patient enough or were too money hungry to actually have the betterment of the breed in mind, as 'breeders' claim. most just hang on the dollar signs it gains when you geld a horse.

there is not as much hazard with dogs as stud dogs, unless they have a poor temperment, arent dangerous as a poorly raised stallion can be. So what would it cost to wait 2 years until the dog is mature and you can see its potential. I can understand nuetering the familly pet. Me, Im not a breeder of dogs, nor will I ever be. I DO know horses though. I know my stallion is a fine example of his breed and wont breed until he has proven through mind and ability before being bred.

what would happen if many of the top producing studs both dogs and horses werent there because someone simply lost its papers or gelded it.

Im simply standing on principle. Simply so every time I say my dog is not spayed and someone asks why I can tell them how I feel about papers and such. Also if the worst thing about my dog is her coat... Im glad for it.

so flame away. this is my opinion, everyone has one as much as I'd like to show akc, I cant because of a 10 cent piece of paper so we will never know if my pup is good enough at tracking or obediance or SCH to get titled. That dont bother me, she's my buddy at the end of the day. Though I would never breed an unpapererd animal (dog or horse, heck even my rabbits were papered), I feel the weight placed on Registration papers is much too heavy. I believe that if the animal has proven its self to be great in every way conformation, mind, health, linage and ability. why should the lack of a piece of paper be manditory for breeding rights? to say its registered and show in so and so's shows? One day I'd like to see registries done away with completely, some how, as all it is a is a breeding ground for politics and very often can ruin a breed (im watching it happen every day in horses where structure is being comprimised for fashion and trends. I'd like to dream that one day a piece of paper printed on your every day printer and a DNA test verifying the dog's linage will be enough. how ever that will never happen as people are untrustworthy and money hungry there is rarely such thing as for the good of the breed these days. all of it is done for the dollar signs and the recignition, that you for a moment had a better dog than joe blow, because never in a million years will I, 'ms joe blow' be able to afford or pay $1500 to $3000 for a pup out of world class lines despite the fact I would provide a good home and a great life for my dog.

you know why back yard dogs sell? price. if someone with quality titled dogs sold their pups for $600-$800 It would literally SQUASH out the lower quality animals because you can SEE these animals are quality, the pups are just as cute and fluffy and their life spans will be longer their health will be better and they are less likely to go crazy one day and bite their owner in the face!

I mean in breeding conformation and temperment alone I have people lined up to breed to my stallion because Ive already set his stud fee (though he wont be covering mares yet) its only a 1/4 of the competition and Im literally stealing the local BYB's buisness with a stud fee the same as theirs. the difference? I do screen mares so not just any mare will be bred since if my stud has to have good temperment breeding and conformation so should the mare. Ive heard one BYB gelded her stallion due to 'the economy'. if this works so well with horses...couldnt it also atleast partially work for dogs?



ok im done ranting. sorry

but I thought it might be an interesting conversation piece though.

[novarobin]

" I believe that if the animal has proven its self to be great in every way conformation, mind, health, linage and ability. why should the lack of a piece of paper be manditory for breeding rights?"

But linage isn't proven. That is what papers do.
I am not for or against your ideas but you state a dog proven to be great including linage.

As for the scenario with death, or other problems with an otherwise registrable dog, I believe I read something where you can apply through the AKC and get papers. I will see if I can find it.

The problem with pricing is that it is much cheaper to produce a dog that is not proven than it is to breed a proven one. It is not just limited to papers, that includes proven ability/conformation and health.
Good breeders CAN'T compete.

[novarobin]

I do disagree that breeders offering dog's at $600-$800 will squash BYBs. I can get a non-registered GSD for much less than that, I can even get one with papers for leas than that. Many people have no idea about health clearances, or that temperament is inherited. All they see is that they don't plan to compete in Schutzhund or showing so why bother buying a dog from a breeder who does and why pay more?
Another common thought is why pay more for a dog with papers if I don't plan to show.
So there will always be people who will simply choose the "deal" and go with the cheaper dog even if a quality dog is available at an affordable price.

[Delilah's_Human]

Originally Posted by novarobin

" I believe that if the animal has proven its self to be great in every way conformation, mind, health, linage and ability. why should the lack of a piece of paper be manditory for breeding rights?"

But linage isn't proven. That is what papers do.
I am not for or against your ideas but you state a dog proven to be great including linage.

As for the scenario with death, or other problems with an otherwise registrable dog, I believe I read something where you can apply through the AKC and get papers. I will see if I can find it.

The problem with pricing is that it is much cheaper to produce a dog that is not proven than it is to breed a proven one. It is not just limited to papers, that includes proven ability/conformation and health.
Good breeders CAN'T compete.

with the rate of genetics these days you can prove liniage. if you start say with 2 AKC dogs and you breed them have both tested for genetics copy that and put it into a pup's folder for its new owner so that the folder would contain genetic info on both parents one DNA test by the new owner to prove its true then they breed to another dog who has parent verified and then you take their genetic info and put it in their pup's file. it probably wouldnt cost more than any lifetime of paying fees to a registration place.

I know very well if someone put their mind to it money wise it can be done. people do it all the time in the horse world and there we are talking about an animal that eats at minimum 1200 dollars a year. Infact one day I plan to stand my stud i will be asking the same as the competition however half my fee would simply go to rescuing orther animals, in this case horses so that with every life brought into the world I can help make one better.

now the great thing about dogs is that more than one offspring is born at a time. so in a litter of 8 pups at 600 each thats 4800 dollars for one litter you're telling me to feed care and regular vet visits are even over 2000 dollars? and you couldnt even get some accomplishments achieved on 2,000 dollars? now if you own 3 bitches say its 3,000 per bitch to get her titled, lets say its $5,000 total to raise the dog train it and get it titled just once. so thats a total of 20,000 dollars for one stud and 3 bitches. now I sell these pups for 600 each and in each litter is say 6 pups. thats 7200 to 9600 for 2 litters for the year (as that accounts for giving each bitch atleast on heat cycle to rest and relax) and we all know there are usually more pups than 6. within 3 1/2 (at 600 a pup) to 2 1/2 years (at 800 a pup) you have paid the dog's "debt" and you are making money, but wait, its not about money its about the good of the breed I thought

We all know any money we all make goes back into the dogs because thats what we enjoy so in the end if you charge 3,000 for a pup or 800 money is made and that is the goal.

and yes you can get papers by nuetering the dog.

again just my opinion is all :P

[novarobin]

Sorry for another reply but you said alot in one post and my mind is working slow (end of 12 hour backshift)
This question is genuine - are we really losing a great deal of quality breeding dogs because of these paper issues?
I know there are some undoubtedly. We had an unregistered GSD K9 here that was by far the best K9 we had and one of my personal favorite examples of the breed.
But considering only a fraction of dogs are even breedworthy and even fewer are truly impacting the breed, I wonder how much of an impact this is.

[Delilah's_Human]

well I took in a dog that was high quality as in, someone paid 1500 for the dog at one point (see him under the conformation critique as "german bred male: Jack) I got him for $100. comes from proven lines, good temperments, conformation and hips. If the market was flooded with GOOD well bred dogs like this. where conformation and temperment were actually popular where would the back yard dog stand? I mean I found Jack on craigslist. Ive actually found quite a few well bred nice quality not outstanding but nice level headed well conformed animals, good DOGs. Dogs I would trust from now til forever that the dog isnt going to be a fruit loop or isnt PRONE to HD.

see and there again with the unregistered dog if all dogs were essentially 'unregistered' what really would set them apart other than some good tactful advertising and DNA proving the dogs are sound mind body and soul so to speak.

Originally Posted by novarobin

I do disagree that breeders offering dog's at $600-$800 will squash BYBs. I can get a non-registered GSD for much less than that, I can even get one with papers for leas than that. Many people have no idea about health clearances, or that temperament is inherited. All they see is that they don't plan to compete in Schutzhund or showing so why bother buying a dog from a breeder who does and why pay more?
Another common thought is why pay more for a dog with papers if I don't plan to show.
So there will always be people who will simply choose the "deal" and go with the cheaper dog even if a quality dog is available at an affordable price.

[novarobin]

Originally Posted by Delilah's_Human

with the rate of genetics these days you can prove liniage. if you start say with 2 AKC dogs and you breed them have both tested for genetics copy that and put it into a pup's folder for its new owner so that the folder would contain genetic info on both parents one DNA test by the new owner to prove its true then they breed to another dog who has parent verified and then you take their genetic info and put it in their pup's file. it probably wouldnt cost more than any lifetime of paying fees to a registration place.
:P

Not sure if I am tired but I am not sure I understand this.

As for the cost of breeding, I am not a breeder so I will leave that for those who do to address. I still maintain a good breeder has a much higher overhead than a BYB.
But in my second post I was trying to imply that if good breeders dropped their price, BY s can always drop theirs lower.

[Delilah's_Human]

Originally Posted by novarobin

Sorry for another reply but you said alot in one post and my mind is working slow (end of 12 hour backshift)
This question is genuine - are we really losing a great deal of quality breeding dogs because of these paper issues?
I know there are some undoubtedly. We had an unregistered GSD K9 here that was by far the best K9 we had and one of my personal favorite examples of the breed.
But considering only a fraction of dogs are even breedworthy and even fewer are truly impacting the breed, I wonder how much of an impact this is.

no worries this is an adult discussion slowness is almost required otherwise we are simply teenagers again, hormonal and undependable lol.

I havent a clue I can only spek for one dogs potential. I look at just a handful of horses and maybe 2 are really something amazing but those two horses impact 100's of horses lives, without them there would be little quality. with dogs one sire could put thousands of dogs out there so to ask if one dog could make a difference I believe so. now take your K9 you mentioned. imagine he sired just one litter of pups and 1/2 that liter got his talent lets say thats 4 dogs total. so then they too are bred to an exceptional dogs each producing only ONE litter of 6 pups each. so we're already up to 24 dogs that one dog has effected. for all any one could know that dog might of been even better than his unregistered status allowed, however that we will never know.

EVERY dog impacts the breed. when people see my german shepherd walking quietly next to me down the street and they say wow thats a magnificent dog and they stop me and ask questions and I tell them to find a relilable breeder to speak to to help them find the perfect dog suited for them only for the person to say hey I think I want a german shepherd. My little mutt pup (heh her nick name as of late) just impacted the german shepherd breed not the AKC german Shepherds or the UKC or the CKC german shepherd but THE German shepherd breed as a whole. I think at the root of all things, papers are causing the breed more problems than anything they divide the breed into 'grade' and registered its like saying private school or public school.


there are always exceptions but I just dont see them so often any more be it the horse world, dog world, people world or COW world.

[Delilah's_Human]

Originally Posted by novarobin

Not sure if I am tired but I am not sure I understand this.

As for the cost of breeding, I am not a breeder so I will leave that for those who do to address. I still maintain a good breeder has a much higher overhead than a BYB.
But in my second post I was trying to imply that if good breeders dropped their price, BY s can always drop theirs lower.

they kinna do this already in the horse world. each parent is DNA'd so instead of paying AKC copy and provide each new owner with a copy of their tests so then they tack their pup in have it dna'd when they then breed their two dogs togther you provide the new owners the parent's dna and so effectively creating a prove liniage held together by DNA PROOF. no registration just DNA.

yes they can do that but Ive got 5 dollars in my pocket am I going to buy the chesse curls or the cheetos. cheetos used to be $4, the cheese curls $2 Oh but now cheetos dropped their price to $2 hmmm and no cheese curls are 50 cent? I like cheetos better and they are satisfactory gaurenteed and you say they are made of real cheese? Im walking out of the store with Cheetos. I hope that made sence other wise Im going to need a better euphimisim.

[Emoore]

Originally Posted by Delilah's_Human

there is not as much hazard with dogs as stud dogs, unless they have a poor temperment, arent dangerous as a poorly raised stallion can be.

Strongly disagree with this. A poorly raised stallion doesn't have to be polite to grandma at Christmas. The chances of a small child running up to your stallion while you're out for a walk around the neighborhood are almost nil. You can stick a horse in the back forty and not have to worry about how it does with kids, old people, people who are afraid of horses, cats, people in wheelchairs, etc.

Originally Posted by Delilah's_Human

never in a million years will I, 'ms joe blow' be able to afford or pay $1500 to $3000 for a pup out of world class lines despite the fact I would provide a good home and a great life for my dog.

Sure you can. If you have enough money to provide a great life for a dog (quality food, training classes, vet care, etc) you can simply put the money aside every month that you would be spending on the dog until you have the money to afford the dog. Shouldn't take more than a year.