The "German Malinois"

[Klamari]

Originally Posted by Samba

I thought there were showline malinois. The people I know with them are quick to tell me that there dog is showlines not working line mal. I don't know anything about the lines, but, for sure, the show Mals I know do not remind me of the working line Malinois that I have seen.

Yeah technically there are some. But breeding Mals for conformation started, what, 20 years ago? For me, there are so few of them, they havent vastly altered the breed, as a whole, from what the "original" was in terms of health. I agree their temperaments might be different, but I don't think they have the line in the sand, yet, like GSDs do when it comes to actual structure, and therefore HD and things like that.

I think it would take another couple decades for the "showline" Mal, done the wrong way, to start affecting the breeds overall health the way it has in the GSD. So right now, the Mals as a breed really don't have that influence the way the GSD does.

Just my opinion

[BlackPuppy]

Originally Posted by Klamari

Also there is no "showline" Mal. So almost every Mal breeder is breeding soley for working ability and temperament. You probably already knew that but my point is......

What are you talking about? There are show line Malinois all over the world, and for much longer than 20 years. Yes, the USA, also. I met a tracking judge who was breeding Malinois over 30 years ago.

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Unfortunately, your state, Texas, and Florida have the most Malinois BYBs in the country. Maybe that's why you think there aren't any conformation Malinois.

[BlackPuppy]

Here's a GSD/Malinois mix in a Texas shelter today that the Malinois rescue is trying to pull. The dog was found as a stray, is 3 years old and up to date on shots. His owners know he's there and don't want to retrieve him, so the ABMC rescue is.

[GSDElsa]

Originally Posted by Rerun

No...you said that crossing american lines with working lines would/could cause "issues."

Your example was taking an american line with weak nerves and crossing it with DDR with high prey and protection drive.

I don't agree that crossing american and DDR lines is going to cause issues. What causes issues is crossing the weak nerves into the mix. Not all american lines have weak nerves. It has nothing to do with the line, your example was strictly on nerves.

Um, no....this is what I said about DDR dogs.

I believe the general thought was that bringing in DDR might be doable because they tend to be "less extreme."
and this from Cliff again:
With the DDR dogs you don't have over the top prey drive and a slower maturing of the dog so these issues are less pronounced; as the very active drives often lead to behavoirs that cause dogs to be difficult to handle by everyday people....

[GSDElsa]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I guess that depends on what your definition of "extreme" is. If you believe all mals and dutchies are weak nerved basket cases who can't settle and live by the motto "A mal is a GSD on crack" then you probably aren't ever going to think it would be a good cross.

Wow, you're sure on a roll putting unsaid words into my mouth. I said that mals are considered "GSD's on crack" pretty tongue in cheek. I believe that's a pretty common "joke" about the difference between mals and GSD's.

And where on earth did I ever said anything about mals and dutchies being weak nerved basket cases who can't settle? I believe the quote by Cliff pretty much summed it up nicely as can have EXTREME prey, hunt, fight drive. What the heck does that have anything to do with being "weak nerved basket cases??"

[Jax08]

Originally Posted by GSDElsa

quote by Cliff

those being the key words.

[GSDElsa]

Originally Posted by Jax08

those being the key words.

Yes exactly! And Cliff certainly wasn't saying those things with some intent on bashing AL's. He's fond of many AL breeders. However, the thought is that there is a basis to the liens that has developed from heavy selective breeding that has made a very specific type of dog. So you take the bloodlines of almost any "typical" American dog--even if it's a good breeder--who has been developed a certain way--and add in something that is the "extreme" in the other direction, and you are asking for a potential clash of traits.

This argument really isn't any different as to why certain working line dogs shouldn't be heavily linebred on. Some dogs don't create the best mix.

I personally gave the issue little thought until the thread that was going on about it, but there was a lot of very good insight given by a lot of very experienced people that made a lot of sense.

[selzer]

No, these bitches were about 75% German Showlines, and the rest American Showlines. I have bred these to German showline dogs since, and I am mostly breeding for German showlines.

Evenso, I am not sure that she would have bred my bitches to the Dutchie. She hadn't mentioned that when she was trying to buy them. I did not like the run of her conversation:

Uhm, what do you think about mud?
Mud?
Yes, do you think puppies should be in mud?
Uh..
Well, I do not think so, I have 13 dogs and they can all run together.
Uhm, well, I do not know that my girls would do that good running around with 13 other dogs.
I have 13 dogs and 13 pens...

And so forth.

Six months later a lady at the grocery store talked to me and told me she "rescued" a very ill puppy from the woman, and the lady gave her a very ill older bitch as well. She told me she had about 15 pens, full of mud, and about four dogs in each of them.

Six months later she called me about a male pup. That is when she told me that she was mixing GSDs with a Dutch Shepherd, because police departments want them.

I sure hope that no police orgainzations are buying from her. I am waiting for a news story to break on her. I had encouraged the lady in the grocery store to blow the whistle on her, but she just said if she wants another, she will "rescue" it from her. I told her if she is paying this woman money, than she was keeping her in business. That ended the conversation. I cannot call on heresay.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by GSDElsa

Wow, you're sure on a roll putting unsaid words into my mouth. I said that mals are considered "GSD's on crack" pretty tongue in cheek. I believe that's a pretty common "joke" about the difference between mals and GSD's.

And where on earth did I ever said anything about mals and dutchies being weak nerved basket cases who can't settle? I believe the quote by Cliff pretty much summed it up nicely as can have EXTREME prey, hunt, fight drive. What the heck does that have anything to do with being "weak nerved basket cases??"

You seem to be wanting to argue. I'm not trying to argue. You stated/quoted earlier in reference to crossing American showlines and DDR that you might end up with the DDR drive and the weak nerve of the showline. You quoted it because you seemed to agree with it. My opinion is that that's an inaccurate line of thinking, because in doing so one is ASSUMING that the breeder is crossing into the mix a weak nerved showline. Not all showlines are weak nerved, and if the breeder is breeding any weaknerved dog then that's obviously irresponsible breeding in the first place. As someone else asked earlier, what "issues" would arise from crossing the two? All you talked about was the weak nerve from the american showline, but if you selected a dog with solid nerves what other issues are there? This is rather off topic anyway, as the thread was about the mal and gsd, not showlines and working lines (GSD).

[GSDElsa]

Originally Posted by Rerun

You seem to be wanting to argue. I'm not trying to argue. You stated/quoted earlier in reference to crossing American showlines and DDR that you might end up with the DDR drive and the weak nerve of the showline. You quoted it because you seemed to agree with it. My opinion is that that's an inaccurate line of thinking, because in doing so one is ASSUMING that the breeder is crossing into the mix a weak nerved showline. Not all showlines are weak nerved, and if the breeder is breeding any weaknerved dog then that's obviously irresponsible breeding in the first place. As someone else asked earlier, what "issues" would arise from crossing the two? All you talked about was the weak nerve from the american showline, but if you selected a dog with solid nerves what other issues are there? This is rather off topic anyway, as the thread was about the mal and gsd, not showlines and working lines (GSD).

OH MY GAWD. No, I have repeatedly said that if a cross was to happen between American showlines and a working line, the cross that would be "doable" would to cross with a DDR dog because they tend to be less extreme in their drives than, say, a Czech dog.

And no, it's really not very off topic even if the example has shifted to GSD combos. People seem to be of the opinion that crossing two types of dogs is always going to create the perfect middle, when that is in fact not always the case. Crossing 2 extremes often results in nothing more than bringing out the worst from both sides.

Of course there are very reputable AL breeders...Andanka is one I have a ton of respect for (I'd say Selzer, but I didn't realize her dogs were actually mostly WGSL's). But she even admits that there have been some bad things that have happened in the line in the past that good breeders are having to fight through. Breeding 2 polar opposites to each other isn't really the best way to fix the issue. It could likely bring out the bad traits that the line has been trying to fix. And I feel this goes for all lines. None is perfect.

COULD it work? I'm sure it could. But I'm sure it would take an ridiculously knowledgable breeder about ALL bloodlines and pedigrees. There is a reason why there isn't an influx of AL's x Czech dogs...just like when you do see GSD x Mal crosses (at least none I've ever seen), it's not with AL's and Mals.

And what was being said by Cliff is totally pertinent to this discussion, as the conversation revolved around why it wouldn't work to add "new" blood such as Czech dogs into the AL's to fix the excessive line/inbreeding that was happening with AL's for awhile. Just like this conversation as to why deciding that a GSD x Mal was the best thing since sliced bread.