Old fashioned? REALLY???

[robinhuerta]

Here's a thought/fact for the enthusiasts of any breed......"The Standard" is not only regarding structure, or how "pretty" a dog should be...as many seem to express. It is about "character, temperament & usefulness"...it is SUPPOSED to be the "breeding guideline/blue print" to follow. It is SUPPOSED to be the "description" of the breed, and it's purpose. You can "interpret" it anyway you choose, you can **** the judges, breeders, sport enthusiasts & handlers...all you want.....bottom line is...breeding for any extreme ..from either... "form TO function" is incorrect.
None of us breed the "perfect" dogs...there is no such thing.
But this breed is SUPPOSED to be strong nerved, have working drives, physically & mentally sound and be of correct size. This is a compliant & versatile breed.....it's supposed to be able to conform to the tasks & duties required.
Titles do not make the dog......but a good dog, can make the title....whatever the "title" may be.
JMO

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Liesje

To me the genetics defines the ends of the spectrum for the dog. No amount of nurture/socialization/environment can push a dog beyond those points, genetically. But between them, that is where socialization comes in. Say a dog is a bit of an edgier dog. One owner might do a lot of socialization, so that the dog ends up toward the more tolerant end of that genetic spectrum. Another owner might not care if the dog is more suspicious and less tolerant and allow the dog to fall toward the other end.

It is not just that. It is everything, it is training, socialization and the nerves that come into the play.

Let's say that you have a five year old that has strong nerves but has never been socialized. You take them to a mall for the first time in his life. The floor is shiny, there are mirrors on the wall and he's never seen himself in a mirror at all, never walked over a shiny floor, never has been surrounded by so many people at all.

First he stops. He's scared of the floor because it's so shiny, he looks into the mirror sees himself and becomes curious but there is the shiny floor. He looks at the floor and slowly makes a couple of steps forward. He slips because the floor is not only shiny but slippery to.
You give him the time to adjust to the situation and after ten minutes he walks on that floor like he's never done anything else before.

Now all these people that have seen his first steps on that floor call him weak nerved because he was a bit thrown off at first.

He reacted because he didn't know what he was walking on. It has nothing to do with weak nerves. If he had weak nerves he wouldn't have adjusted to the situation at all.

Or elevators for example. The first time they might be a little careful but they walk in, the second time they have no problems at all.

Ever taken a dog into a German Strassenbahn? First two times might be hard and I guarantee you that every dog, that has never experienced it before WILL have problems. It doesn't matter if it is a strong nerved dog or not, you HAVE to train it. They have to be used to it. It'll go much faster with a strong nerved dog but the first time you ride on the Strassenbahn with an untrained dog it's going to be a lot of fun. And this is also part of socialization.

[robinhuerta]

I believe that it is not the "reaction" from the dogs to new experiences or circumstances..that is most important.....it is "how the dog recovers" from them....
I believe that is where "genetics" is most apparent....be it "weak or strong".
again...JMO

[Chris Wild]

Originally Posted by Doc

Chris, I agree with you. Now don't faint and yes I said it! roflmao

Oh Lordy, what is the world coming to!? Because my next statement is....



I absolutely agree with Doc here:

Originally Posted by Doc

Health, temperament, and structure is the trinity. How that looks is anyone's guess.

These are indeed the keys.

All 3 must be balanced between each other. Losing sight of that, forgoing one or two in favor of focusing solely on another is the downfall of the breed, and the biggest reason the breed is in the state it is today.

A dog with poor temperament is a blight on the breed and of no use to anyone, and in many cases a dangerous liability. A dog with poor health is a heartbreaker. A dog with structure that impeeds his ability to do what his owner wants and what his breed should be able to do, or even to enjoy normal life as a dog going for walks and chasing a ball, is a tragedy. This doesn't mean those dogs don't deserve love and good homes, but they certainly are not good representatives of the breed.

Furthermore, each must be balanced in its own right. It's not just a focus on one or two aspects over others that causes problems, but very differing opinions of what constitutes correct and balanced within each category. Here is where individual interpretation has taken the breed all over the place because everyone has their own idea of what constitutes correct temperament or structure or even health.

Temperament must be balanced. No secret I'm a "working dog" person. But to me, a GSD who can work but can't be a companion is as incorrect for this breed as one who can be a companion but cannot work. The GSD must be able to do both. Of course, how one defines work of course is very open to interpretation.

Structure must be balanced, and here I feel that while the dog should look like a GSD and be pleasing to the eye, structure should never, ever impeed function. (Though personally, I don't find the dogs where it does to be pleasing to the eye or very GSD looking... but obviously some do.) When what "wins" is a structure that severely reduces speed, agility, stamina and structural integrity, something is very very wrong.

Even what constitutes correct health is somewhat open to interpretation. I think we all feel we have a really good idea of what makes a "healthy" dog and what doesn't, but sometimes I wonder.

I have a 10.5yo dog at home with hips graded at a year old as Moderate HD by OFA. And while the hips shown on the x-rays aren't the worst I've seen, they're pretty ugly. Yet at 10.5 she's as crazy, active and vibrant as ever and has no problem running and jumping and chasing balls, with an energy level that rivals that of our 5mo puppies.

Is she healthy? Or not? The official ruling of course would be NO! She has moderate HD! But it's never bothered her, she's never had any symptoms, despite it she's more active and spry than a lot of dogs half her age. And we've never done anything extreme to affect that. She's had a good diet, good medical care, good exercise, has been kept fit and trim.. but nothing there out of the ordinary or geared toward dealing with her HD. Only thing we've done differently than with any other dog is adding joint supplements to her diet. That's it.

Would I breed her? No, of course not. But I might be prone to arguing with anyone who said she isn't healthy based soley on her x-rays... and I know she'd argue with them.

[Emoore]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

Genetics always trumps environment. And while enviroment and socialization can play a role, it is a smaller one than many people think. And even how much of an influence environment can have is also governed in large part by genetics.

Speaking as a rescuer, this is why it drives me nutzo when every time a dog with an unknown history is remotely shy, people automatically assume the dog's been abused. There can't possibly be that many dogs that have been systematically abused.

There are 3 dogs sitting in my living room right now. 2 came from the shelter and have unknown histories. The other I got when he was 10 weeks old, has never had a hand raised against him, and has been socialized out the wazoo. Guess which one's shy and nervy?

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by robinhuerta

I believe that it is not the "reaction" from the dogs to new experiences or circumstances..that is most important.....it is "how the dog recovers" from them....
I believe that is where "genetics" is most apparent....be it "weak or strong".
again...JMO

Yes, that is what I believe to but it is hard to put it into a different language.

Anyhow, I think you get what I am trying to say, right?

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Emoore

Speaking as a rescuer, this is why it drives me nutzo when every time a dog with an unknown history is remotely shy, people automatically assume the dog's been abused. There can't possibly be that
many dogs that have been systematically abused.
There are 3 dogs sitting in my living room right now. 2 came from the shelter and have unknown histories. The other I got when he was 10 weeks old, has never had a hand raised against him, and has been socialized out the wazoo. Guess which one's shy and nervy?

You would be surprised. Abuse doesn't start by hitting them.

If there are so many kids being systematically abused, so many women raped, so many other people murdered, so many people abusing drugs... what makes you think that there can't be that many dogs abused?

Puppy mills is a form of abuse. Abandoning a pet is abuse, neglecting a dog is abuse. There is physical and verbal abuse.
All these dogs in the shelters have been abused one way or the other and if it was only their trust in humans that got abused.

[GSD07]

Originally Posted by atravis

These were WAR dogs, turned movie stars, turned legends to the American people and to the WORLD.

Maybe to American people but not to the WORLD, hate to disappoint you. My childhood heroes were a border patrol GSD catching spies with his handler, day and night, and a canine member of T-34 crew who was sharing the hardship of war with his handler. So my idea of a pet was and still is a dog that can kick butts first, and then save children

[Doc]

Very well stated Chris. If we both agree with each other, people may start to talk about us ... LOL.

I'm well aware of what the Standard is suppose to do and be, but it has been bastardized to the point that the German shepherd is no longer the dog Max created.

[Mrs.K]

Structure must be balanced, and here I feel that while the dog should look like a GSD and be pleasing to the eye, structure should never, ever impeed function. (Though personally, I don't find the dogs where it does to be pleasing to the eye or very GSD looking... but obviously some do.) When what "wins" is a structure that severely reduces speed, agility, stamina and structural integrity, something is very very wrong.

That I totally agree with.