Old fashioned? REALLY???

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

The reason we are in this mess today is because people started breeding for beauty and there are a lot of people out there that pay thousands of dollars and euros for these dogs.

Every breed that is bred for beauty is going downhill. Not only the Shepherd and as long as there are shows like the Westminster Kennel show it will never stop.

True but they bred to the Standard and to what would win shows at the expense of health, temperament, and structure.

So which is worst - a "Standard dog" with poor health, and poor temperament or a dog that is "not to the Standard" and healthy, and with outstanding temperament? I know which one represents the breed better.

[Mrs.K]

And there are still Shepherds like that out there that fall into the standard size and weight. Not all of them are so called "Wesenskrueppel" and "Scherenschleifer" (thats how weak and low nerved dogs are called in Germany).

There are dogs that are die-hard working dogs, healthy hips, strong nerves and still live with the family and let the kids ride on them. You can take these dogs anywhere. I can even take my abused Yukon into the city and expose him to a busy mall, take him to festivals, elevators, buses, train stations and and and.

The key is socialization and there is a huge difference betwen dogs that have weak nerves and dogs that are not socialized at all.

I've come to realize that many dogs lack socialzation because they are mainly kept in the backyard and housing area or taken from the kennel to the dog club.
No wonder that these dogs collapse when they are exposed to streets, malls and lots of people.

[Chris Wild]

I disagree that it is mainly socialization, or a lack thereof. I think more often than not it is genetically weak nerves, and this is used as an excuse for faulty temperament. I have just known way too many dogs who had little to no socialization yet were as confident, outgoing and stable as could be. And way too many dogs who were socialized out the wazoo and never had a bad experience in their lives that are still skittish, fearful and nervy.

Genetics always trumps environment. And while enviroment and socialization can play a role, it is a smaller one than many people think. And even how much of an influence environment can have is also governed in large part by genetics.

[atravis]

"There are dogs that are die-hard working dogs, healthy hips, strong nerves and still live with the family and let the kids ride on them. You can take these dogs anywhere. I can even take my abused Yukon into the city and expose him to a busy mall, take him to festivals, elevators, buses, train stations and and and."

Of course this is true. My Mulder is like this. He's not trained in protection, but if I were truly in danger, I have little doubt in my mind that he would do everything within his power to keep me safe. I've seen him turn "on", and its nothing I would want to be on the receiving end of. I sleep very well at night

But at the same time, I take him with me anywhere I'm aloud. Stores, outdoor events, you name it. He LOVES children, he likes meeting new people, he's fine with my cats, and is best buddies with my foster dog (or any dog that will tolerate him, really). He's just about as stable as stable gets.


But how many are like this? How common is it? Yes, proper socialization is important, but people shouldn't have to walk on eggshells to make sure the dog turns out ok.

Case in point- how many become dog reactive after being attacked by another dog?

Mulder has been attack THREE times, and still has a scar on his face from one of them. Yet I can still take him to the local dog park, and he gets along perfectly with everyone there.

YES, I worked hard to keep up his socialization, but there MUST be a genetic base. My point is, how many have this? Why don't MORE have this?

[Doc]

Chris, I agree with you. Now don't faint and yes I said it! roflmao

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

I disagree that it is mainly socialization, or a lack thereof. I think more often than not it is genetically weak nerves, and this is used as an excuse for faulty temperament. I have just known way too many dogs who had little to no socialization yet were as confident, outgoing and stable as could be. And way too many dogs who were socialized out the wazoo and never had a bad experience in their lives that are still skittish, fearful and nervy.

Genetics always trumps environment. And while enviroment and socialization can play a role, it is a smaller one than many people think. And even how much of an influence environment can have is also governed in large part by genetics.

My female is like that. She had no socialization at all but she OWNS the world LOL.

However, a trained eye can tell (after a while) if the dog has weak nerves or isn't socialized at all and I can see it especially here on post that some dogs have no manners at all, not socialized and are only taken out to pee and poop and I guarantee you that even strong nerved dogs can be jumpy in certain situations just because they've never been exposed to it before.
They are not machines and don't know everything from the start, some things you have to teach them. And thats the difference between weak and strong nerved dogs. The weak nerved dogs will not learn it in the first place.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

I disagree that it is mainly socialization, or a lack thereof. I think more often than not it is genetically weak nerves, and this is used as an excuse for faulty temperament. I have just known way too many dogs who had little to no socialization yet were as confident, outgoing and stable as could be. And way too many dogs who were socialized out the wazoo and never had a bad experience in their lives that are still skittish, fearful and nervy.Genetics always trumps environment. And while enviroment and socialization can play a role, it is a smaller one than many people think. And even how much of an influence environment can have is also governed in large part by genetics.

Have to disagree with this one - Genetics ARE importanr BUT it has been shown time and time again that environment/experience also plays a HUGE role in the finished product. Otherwise why bother socializing?

I don't believe that anyone can really split these two when it comes to deciding what actually causes one dog tobe calm and brave while another (maybe from the same litter) is afraid of his own shadow.

My own dog is a great example of the influence of environment/experience, he is bold, extremely curious and outgoing and thinks that almost everyone should be his friend (except that he is protective in certain circumstances) but overall very bold and pushy. His litter brother and sister who we see every now and then are extremely different - not really people friendly and very quiet and timid almost shy esp. his brother. Granted the genes are not identical but I suspect they are pretty close. Their experience is VERY different.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by codmaster

Have to disagree with this one - Genetics ARE importanr BUT it has been shown time and time again that environment/experience also plays a HUGE role in the finished product. Otherwise why bother socializing?

To me the genetics defines the ends of the spectrum for the dog. No amount of nurture/socialization/environment can push a dog beyond those points, genetically. But between them, that is where socialization comes in. Say a dog is a bit of an edgier dog. One owner might do a lot of socialization, so that the dog ends up toward the more tolerant end of that genetic spectrum. Another owner might not care if the dog is more suspicious and less tolerant and allow the dog to fall toward the other end.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Doc

If the Standard is so dang important and powerful, why in hades are we in the dam mess we are today?

Good question. I show my dogs in three venues, do Schutzhund and all manor of other training and titling and to be honest, I'm not sure I've ever even read the German Shepherd standard. It doesn't seem to hold us back. If you are so against the standards then just don't worry about it. Form follows function. If the dogs are consistently doing the jobs the breed was designed to do, the structure and temperament will follow.

[Chris Wild]

Originally Posted by Liesje

To me the genetics defines the ends of the spectrum for the dog. No amount of nurture/socialization/environment can push a dog beyond those points, genetically. But between them, that is where socialization comes in. Say a dog is a bit of an edgier dog. One owner might do a lot of socialization, so that the dog ends up toward the more tolerant end of that genetic spectrum. Another owner might not care if the dog is more suspicious and less tolerant and allow the dog to fall toward the other end.

Exactly! That is what I meant when I said genetics determines temperament and the amount of effect environment can have.

Some dogs are so genetically sound that nothing in the environment is going to change that. This dog can be raised completely wrong in a horrible environment, and will still be ok. Remove him from that environment and he'll shine because his genetics are so sound environment can't change that. Sure, significant negative experiences may produce bagage as it relates to a very specific stimuli, but that will not globalize. For example, a rock solid dog who's beaten everyday by an old lady with a red hat and a cane is going to develop a phobia of old ladies with red hats and canes.. but not old ladies in general or the color red in general and certainly not every strange person it encounters.

Other dogs are so genetically unsound that no amount of socialization and positive experiences is going to help. They can be in the best home, given every advantage and they will still be unstable. Environment can't change that either.

And still other dogs fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, with both nature and nurture coming into play. Though knowing the environment and knowing the dog and being able to observe if negative reactions are specific or globalized makes it fairly easy in most cases to get a pretty good idea of which is at the root of most behaviors.

The problem of course is that often we don't know where the dog falls on that spectrum, so giving him every advantage, socializing properly, raising properly, is always the way to go. If he's in the first category, it wasn't needed but didn't hurt. If he's in the second category, it won't hurt, might help a tiny bit, but at least will confirm where the dog stands, and if he's like most dogs in the last category somewhere in the middle it can have an important impact on the final product.