Old fashioned? REALLY???

[Raziel]

I love my big ass GSD!!!!!!!
27 1/2 inches.

[Samba]

From Koos Hassing:

"Some dogs fight very hard with the helper due to nervousness and some due to dominance. For some judges it is very hard to see the difference, because they have not enough knowledge to see it. In the protection phase, how many judges can see that the dog is confronting the helper or begging for the sleeve? And than dogs get high points, use for breeding and produce worse dogs. On this way of judging they kill the working abilities."

CanineSquad - Koos Hassing

Aaargh, even the judges don't see it sometimes. How is a lesser skilled person to know?

[RubyTuesday]

Originally Posted by Vandal
SchH people have allowed Malionois trainers to tell them how to train a GSD.

Anne, could you elaborate on this a bit. Specifically, where is the error in that & how should the training approaches/goals differ?

[Jessiewessie99]

when people talk about old fashion i think of King Shepherds and the very big Shiloh Shepherds.

[cliffson1]

Samba, In regards to your comment from Koos...oldtimers refer to dogs that bite and are just holding on as "Finding comfort in the sleeve"". They will grip and hold on for dear life. Often they will grip very hard and many handlers and even trainers think this is a very hard dog. WRONG! Dog shows no dominance of his situation. Dog is really weak nervewise, but has the prey drive to give the good bite and impression of strength. When that dog has to release and sit underneath the bad guy awaiting the next command you will see signs of the unsureness. These are the type of things that Sch used to test for and people could see the dogs that were good for owning and the ones that were good for breeding. There is a difference, yet today you ee many of these dogs in Sch and then we wonder why the protection part of the Seiger show is so pitiful. Because people are breeding these dogs even though their strength of character is suspect.

[cliffson1]

As an addendum to the above post tying in with this topic. The issue isn't the dog biting as some of you will focus on that don't do protection work, the "issue" is the dogs unsureness when placed in a stressful situation of releasing the sleeve. This inability to handle stress in CORRUTIBLE. Back in the day the breed was known for being "INCORRUPTIBLE". If you have a dog of ninety-five pounds that is incorruptible, i will take that any day over a standard size dog that is corruptible in temp. But alas, many of the oversized dogs I see today are not incorruptible and if they are oversized must be held to the same standard of mental acuity to be worthy of the breed. This doesn't have to manifest itself in Sch training, but it must manifest itself in protective instincts that are present when needed...or else it would be a golden with ears that stand erect. And some form of training with the dog is needed to determine the ability to handle stress. , when there is no stress everyone can function...but I have never lived in a world with no stress, so the need for these traits in this breed.

[Vandal]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

Anne, could you elaborate on this a bit. Specifically, where is the error in that & how should the training approaches/goals differ?

All breeds are different. There 'should' be a more distinct difference in the temperament of a Mal and the temperament of a GSD. That difference requires different training methods. The GSD is now swinging towards Mals in temperament. Certainly dogs have been selected to fit the training methods. Used to be people who trained German Shepherds were the ones people looked to for training advice and to learn to read a GSD. Now, maybe because of the success they have had in trials, people look to Mal trainers. That is not , IMO, what the breed needs. We need more people who really understand GSDs to be teaching people about GERMAN SHEPHERDS. More focus in understanding the breed and what it is SUPPOSED to be would go a long way to improve things. Perhaps people would start to understand that a GSD was never intended to look like a Mal does in SchH and it is OK. Please don't tell me these Mal trainers understand GSDs. You have to work with them consistently to really understand and when you do that, you are constantly reminded of things you may have forgotten. This is not an insult to Mal trainers, it is just a fact that they are "experts" on their breed, not GSDs.

Also, in protection, Mals are motivated differently that GSDs. They have more drive as a general rule and are easier to bring into drive. An easier dog to reach overall. A 'good" GSD needs more and the work needs to be capable of reaching " inside" the dog in order to really see who that dog is. Working GSDs on the "surface" is what happens now. We don't see the same power and aggression in the dogs because very few helpers are capable of bringing it out and very few handlers are capable of seeing that their dog is not really bringing all he has to the work.

GSDs are a thinking breed. They were always intended to be a breed that thinks first before they act. It takes a certain kind of helper, with very good knowledge of the breed, to work with that kind of dog. The same work that might be totally appropriate for a Malinois leaves the GSD looking like a lesser dog . The better GSDs need a "reason" to work in protection. As a breed known for it's ability to differentiate between a threat and a non-threat, they do need to see a "bad guy" vs just someone to chase. People maybe don't know why but when they see their dog worked the right way, they do notice. GSDs look totally different when the helper is playing the role and what is inside that dog is brought out. That is when you see the real temperament of a GSD and that is when people really start to have fun training.
Yesterday the helper I am training was able to see the difference when he worked my dog the "right " way. The bark, the grip, the fight all came out when he figured out how to present the right challenge to the dog. A GSD has to see that challenge coming from the helper or they will just kind of fall asleep. My fear is that many of the really good dogs are being discarded because they never see this kind of work. When you work a good GSD the wrong way, they do not look good at all. People will claim they just "don't have it". Usually, it is just a little deeper in the dog than inexperienced helpers can reach. We see this quite a bit in the way a GSD barks. That is the first indicator that the work is not appropriate for the dog. People want to call it a prey bark but there is more to it than that. When the helper does not tap into what a GSD was intended to work with, it leaves the dog looking weak. I think this is probably a "you have to see what I am saying" kind of thing. Most people now think the kind of training I am talking about means their dog will be "reactive". The way people have misunderstood that concept has led to huge numbers of BORED GSDs who are never worked at the right drive level.

Years ago, the two people I trained with went over to Germany to train with Helmut. My friend has a video of Helmut "talking" to our helper after he worked Helmut's Bundessieger. He is holding up his little finger and pointing to the tip of it with his other hand. He says, "this is how much you mean to my dog". His point was that our helper didn't reach the dog in the slightest. He was no challenge , no opponent, basically a joke to the dog. I see people like our helper was then just about everywhere now. They may be athletes but they do not bring the right attitude to the helper work.

[LaRen616]

Raziel
"I love my big ass GSD!!!!!!!
27 1/2 inches."

I love mine too! I think I am measuring correctly
Mine is 27 inches.

He just turned a year old. Will he continue to grow or is that it?

[AbbyK9]

The more I come back to this thread, the more I'm becoming certain that my next dog will be another Malinois.

[Emoore]

You know, I feel so fortunate to be a rescue foster. If I want a big dog, I can adopt a big dog. If I want one that's got a stable temperament and loves kids, we're up to our ears in those. If I want one that's a little overly suspicious of strangers and barks a lot I can get one. I can have a black, a white, a sable, a longhair, oversized or undersized. . . all without worrying that I'm supporting a non-reputable breeder or jeapordizing the breed.