Old fashioned? REALLY??? - Page 42

RubyTuesday · 03-21-2010, 02:49 AM

Castlemaid, my remarks were over generalized & possily unfair. Note please that I said the trash*bash crud proliferates on these discussions which is not the same as saying they are "nothing but trash & bash". Your rebuttal largely ignores the many, many posts which arbitrarily link oversized GS with dogs that are inherently fat, lazy, clumsy, inept, unhealthy, short lived, prone to HD, weak nerved, excessively soft & incapable of working. Rarely does anyone say, "that if someone likes the large sizes, that is fine. If a breeder wants to breed oversized dogs, that is their perjorative."(Freudian slip there???)

GSDElsa proposed that anyone wanting a 120lb GS should get a giant breed. I like Great Danes. I love Irish Wolfhounds, which I've had & will have again, however I will *still* want dogs with the discernment, biddability, analytical prowess, mental strength & work ethic of the GS. I like em big, but that's not all that I'm looking for.

FTR, my little Djibouti was ~92lbs at a year. He’s probably a bit heavier at 2, but not much, so is he an acceptably ‘large but not giant sized GS’??? (In fact he probably weighs less than some of the SchH GS).

Another thread posted numerous examples of oversized GS working in LE, SAR etc. Khawk has worked many oversized GS, including some that were over 120’. Dogs that actually work provide the ultimate proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSDElsa
Oh, I agree. But for the people who say the dogs who are outside the breed standard are JUST AS GOOD and SHOULD be included in the breed standard. Fine. Prove it to all of us.

No doubt that people will ALWAYS breed outside of the standard--for any trait. But for those that want to cry about their dog not being included because it's just as good as the others. Show us.

Crying??? Pffft. Opposing misinformation is the only thing I’m interested in doing. Nor do I give a ratz patoot about being included in the standard since I have no interest in conformation showing or SchH. I would like to see breed tests that specifically test for all the qualities I want/need in my GS but until that happens titles, ribbons & awards simply don’t resonate with me. IF I was interested in SchH or showing I’d think differently.

Anne, that is a seriously gorgeous, gorgeous guy! And what an expression! IF he's half the dog he looks to be, he's something very special.

cliffson1 · 03-21-2010, 09:14 AM

Ruby Tuesday, thanks for the kind words but if I am a coauthor on the book it may bomb!! Robin, Robin, Robin, youth has its passion and this is very good. Age has its experience and usually tempers the passion somewhat.(hopefully). Now how could I have disappointed you when I haven't weighed in on this thread with MY thoughts. One of the reasons I haven't weighed in because the topic was about old fashioned German Shepherds and many people were going to give replies who weren't even born when old fashioned GS were around. So to me they can only state read facts or hearsay as they don't have a point of reference.(Kinda like yesterday when a 16 year old kid in our club with two left feet was telling me why his showline DOBE isn't doing long bites like other dogs is because John and I won't move him along fast enough. Dog has horrible nerves. And John looks at me after he left(John has trained dogs for a living for 42 years, I only have 38), and said Don't you love it when a 16 year old is telling you how to train a dog!!!) I know some people get tired of me talking experience, so I've cut back instead of arguing with the sixteen year old.
But as to my statement, if you read Anne's statement, Everything she wrote in that post is accurate to my way of thinking. These are the same things I've experienced as a person who has bred and WORKED dogs for many many years. I honestly believe the conformation ring and the sport world has had a profound negative impact on the breed in the past twenty years. Anne has a profound love for the breed and is doing everything she can to help the breed by posting on this forum and maybe some people will recognize the value of her post and change some of their perspectives on the breed. I have learned a lot from Anne on this board in training and on the breed and in personal conversations. I KNOW she knows what she is talking about!! She just tells it like it is and that is what the breed needs but it has to be from somebody who has bred and worked dogs to be able to know what to breed for. Sch and conformation is no longer conducive to supporting true German Shepherd temperament, and I have said this for a long time on this list and I can't change to what I don't believe. Really read what she wrote and you will see good information...don't worry about the breed is past saving part, as I believe Anne is only trying to convey the dire situation the breed is in. Nobody loves the breed any more than her, you, me, Doc, Chris, RT, Samba, Lies, Fred, Lisa, etc. But some have a wider point of reference in action and experience and I choose to listen to them if it rings true...JMO..peace!

Dainerra · 03-21-2010, 09:20 AM

I think the main complaint is breeder's who say that they are breeding "what the public wants" Sorry, but John Q Public doesn't KNOW what he wants.

"I want a giant GSD like I remember from childhood" umm you do realize that you were 3 feet tall so EVERYTHING looked big to you, right?? My daughter is very petite; a 5 years old she and Rayden could look eye to eye (her standing, him sitting) So should people breed a dog big enough to look her in the eye because that's what she remembers?? At 9, she isn't a lot taller! So when she finally hits a growth spurt, should we breed 5 foot tall GSDs?

"Bigger is better" SUVs, houses, dogs, meals, french fries, soda.. if a little is good, bigger is better, right??

"My dog at home weighs 130lbs" I doubt it. Rayden weighs 83 lbs. Sure he's got a lot of hair so looks bigger, but not that much! Then they tell me "oh he's the same size as my dog at home and HE weighs at least 140" Then people look at Freya and say "OH, she's just a baby, what's she weigh 30-40lbs?" umm wrong again, she weighs 70. Sure she looks delicate and petite beside Rayden, but she's a GIRL. Not to mention that people are used to seeing dogs that look like beer kegs with legs anyway...

"Oh he's beautiful! I want a dog just like him" minus the exercise, training, protectiveness, of course. I want him to love all people and all dogs. I want a dog that acts like a lab, but looks like a GSD. of course, minus the people that act afraid - I don't want anyone afraid of my dog.

"I like smart dogs" no, John Q. Public likes OBEDIENT dogs. smart dogs can be a pain in the rump for the average owner. They need a job or they WILL make their own. and most likely you won't like it.

About schutzhund not testing for the qualities that you want, what is it that you are looking for? (I'm too lazy to go back and read) I want a GSD that is protective. Loyal. Smart. Obedient. Works well with me. Has an off-switch. All of those are easily tested for with schutzhund. Though it's not the titles themselves, but the knowledge of the person working the dog that I want to hear.
I see ads in the paper all the time for GSDs. "Great pets. beautiful colors" "old fashioned" "giant" "quiet and gentle" All they want is a dollar. I've seen some of the dogs that they are selling. They barely look like shepherds! but, people buy them by the dozens because thats "what the public wants"

The public wants a cheap, no training/housebreaking/work required dog. One who's hair will match the furniture. That magically knows if the person about to knock on the door is Aunt Betty that hasn't visited in 20 years or an annoying vacuum salesman. That loves everyone and every animal. But is scary and will eat bad people. But that everyone else would NEVER be afraid of.
and then, of course, you don't want the dog to herd the cat. or the running screaming kids.

I don't mind people who breed over-sized GSDs that ARE GSDs. People like Doc who are breeding what THEY believe that a GSD should be.

I DO mind people who are breeding huge dogs that mostly look like GSDs. but don't act like them. And the only reason they are doing it is because they sell.

**Samba** · 03-21-2010, 10:57 AM

It is an interesting situation and will exist in all we do , I guess. In my career, I can tell you that nursing and medical care are not what they were 30 years ago. Some things are great improvements, but many are not. When I talk about old systems and approaches to younger practitioners it is difficult. I think they feel I am an older person talking about something they haven't seen and can't relate to. They think I am not as passionate and must have idealistic memories of the "good 'ol days".

Experience is not everything in and of itself either. It matters very much "who" is having the experience. What is their ability to really synthesize and understand what it is they are seeing and experiencing?

I too know that people like Anne has experience and knowledge that is worth listening to and trying to grasp. I don't know Cliff so much, but the things he speaks of makes me sense his experience is well "experienced" also. But, like my younger professionals at work, I and others are at a distinct experience and understanding challenge through no fault of our own, of course.

The dog pictured in Anne's picture from her friend is a magnificent specimen. The dogs looks are the least of what is so impressive in him , I am sure of it. I know he is not the exception in those dogs either. Can such be preserved? Are there enough breeders and dogs to do so? Are there dogs today that resemble them? Would we know one if we saw it!? Heck, I am almost to the point of thinking if I had some dogs with more of the "older" traits, would there even be anyone around who knew how to work them??

Also, I think it is so that people like Cliff, Anne, Doc and others... they did not grow up with "ScH" dogs,or "show" dogs, or "pet"dogs so much.
They were introduced to German Shepherd Dogs. The split was much less, the variation in the dogs obviously less. I do know that because of this, they really are proponents of the breed and not so much any "lines" or venues.

Vandal · 03-21-2010, 11:21 AM

Quote:

About schutzhund not testing for the qualities that you want, what is it that you are looking for? (I'm too lazy to go back and read) I want a GSD that is protective. Loyal. Smart. Obedient. Works well with me. Has an off-switch. All of those are easily tested for with schutzhund.

I have been working dogs in SchH as the handler and the helper for my entire adult life. I have also witnessed and entered more than one "dog show". So, before anyone gets the idea that I am just "sitting on the sidelines", let me make that point clear.

The above comment is simply not accurate. Maybe it used to be but overall, SchH is not testing protectiveness and a person can pass the protection portion, ( with a very high score), with a dog who doesn't have a protective bone in his body.

As for an "off switch", ( another term I am learning to not like), SchH is not testing that either, not that it should really. What SchH should test is the dog's ability to remain clear under stress and pressure. Many people are claiming this is the case but I am talking about a dog who can work in aggression, mean business in protection but still be able to hear his handler and comply. Asking a dog to stop gripping the big toy and asking him to disengage from a fight are two TOTALLY different things. Mostly the former is what is going on in SchH and that alone is one of the biggest reasons that SchH no longer does what it was intended to do. You can read that a few times if you do not understand what I am saying because it is a very important point.

Also, as I said on this board maybe about 7 years ago now..... one type of dog is being promoted over the other. There is a lack of balance in what dogs are available for breeding in that many are simply too driven, possessive and excitable. Continuing to breed these types of dogs together is going to lead, (and already has), to problems. That being weaker nerves and problems with fear/unprovoked aggression. The more solid dogs with the unshakable nerves are becoming extinct in SchH. Used to be those dogs were held in the highest regard but now they are too slow in obedience, not edgy enough and require real knowledge from the helper to work . That's just too much trouble. People want dogs who will light up with very little provocation. Again, that's not a German Shepherd. GSDs are supposed to be a thinking breed and a breed that can discern a threat from a non-threat. The helper used to be a "bad guy" not a "sparring partner" or the dog's friend.
SchH itself was once a very good test of German Shepherd temperament. Then people got too cleaver with the training because they just had to have a trophy or ribbon. The focus shifted away from testing the dogs to looking at who the trainer is. It is the lack of understanding by the people training in SchH that is leading to the problems. Most do not have a clue what SchH was testing for way back when. It is now a sport to most people and they train with points in mind. It has moved away from it's original purpose in more ways than most people can understand. Most people don't seem to want to understand either and that is a real tragedy.

cliffson1 · 03-21-2010, 01:45 PM

Samba, your last paragraph has a lot of truth in it. I have said a hundred times on this forum, when I started out Show dogs were working dogs were pet dogs in homes!! To me that is what the breed is all about...why would I want to encourage this separation mentality of show lines vs working lines. They are here at present but that does not mean my training regiment or my conformation dog has to conform to these new separations.
The biggest problems with the breed today is nerve strength...as Anne stated most people don't know nerve strength to evaluate it. Conformation dogs and sport dogs don't need nerve strength to be successful anymore. Nerve strength allows the same dog to be able to be a pet, military dog, herding dog, or seeing-eye dog depending on who's hands he went to. Now we have one camp with more drive than nerve, another camp with more pretty than nerve, etc.
I also think that Dainerra wrote a very good post that has a lot of truth in it.
As for oversized German Shepherds, when I was in the military we had 250 dogs at the kennel and some of them were definitely oversized. They were military working dogs and were acceptable to me. Lrt me state MY position on oversized GS. I would breed to an oversized German Shepherd if he possessed the genetics and physical characteristics that I need for my female. I would not breed FOR oversized German Shepherds specifically, not because they are oversized, but because to continually do it would narrow the genepool from a phenotype position and eventually a genotype position. (Pheno being physical expression of dog, and geno being bloodlines of dog) And everyone knows how I feel about narrowing the genepool. JMO

Doc · 03-21-2010, 06:18 PM

Thanks to Anne and Cliff for you knowledge, years of experience and devotion to the German shepherd dogs we use to have. I appreciate both of you sharing your take on today's German shepherd.

I guess if one has never seen or been around the dogs from yester-years, then they really have no clue what we spent most of lives with or the love and appreciation we gained from these special dogs.

RubyTuesday · 03-21-2010, 09:36 PM

Dainerra, I live in a bad neighborhood. Too often the nervous nellies who buy guns & shoot at shadows also acquire snarling, snappy unreliable curs. These so called PPD menace the many innocent people (including young children) that live here. In even the worst neighborhoods the vast majority of people are innocent & don't deserve to be at risk from the 'good guys' as well as the baddies. (Note, these ill bred, poorly trained dogs are not to be confused with legit PPD. Please don't think I'm confusing the two)

I want a tough minded, discerning, deep thinking, well reasoned dog. IF s/he's appropriately protective that's a plus but it's imperative the dog have a solid, stable disposition that doesn't spook easily or react without thinking. My dogs must be over all reliable with people, good with other animals & excellent with children.

The GS from my childhood were larger than the medium sized dogs promoted by some SchH enthusiasts. IF it was simply a relativity thing, then Goldens, Labs, Collies would also appear significantly smaller today, but they don't. My parents, uncles & aunts, who were adults when I was a child, would remember GS as medium sized rather than larger, yet they too remember the GS being a large rather than medium sized dog. Larger in & of itself is neither good nor bad. I like 'em big (tall & lean), but that's simply my preference. And as I've also stated, size is not my prime consideration.

There are good, bad & indifferent breeders of all 'types' & lines. Some SchH breeders select for a GS that's for my taste excessively sharp, hyper reactive & not enough of a thinker. Some oversized GS breeders prefer a GS that IMO is too soft, overly dependent & lacks spark. True byb of all types simply produce whatever comes about following essentially random couplings. Judging good breeders by the dogs produced by poor to middling breeders is simply unfair regardless of type.

Samba, that's an excellent post. IMO, GS people should be aware of an increasing need for working dogs of all sizes. MvS looked to the future when developing the breed & envisioned a working dog that would not become an anachronism with the inevitable decline of pastoral canine jobs. It seems that even as the world of working dogs is expanding, the world of working GS is contracting. That simply shouldn't be.

Cliff, I stumbled across some very interesting articles from a Seppala Husky breeder. I was in the middle of a 15" work break & didn't get into it very far but he's clearly an independent thinker. Although the Seppala Huskies are his passion, most of the info is generally applicable to anyone breeding. Have you seen it? I thought of you while perusing the material.

**Samba** · 03-21-2010, 10:11 PM

Here are some old fashioned German Shepherds ( and a few other breeds) doing some old fashioned training. Some are largish some are smaller.

YouTube - Schutzhund in Germany 1936

Raziel · 03-21-2010, 11:07 PM

they look very diff. More like a doberman face.........more thin
maybe thats just me.....?

03-21-2010, 10:57 AM	#414 (permalink)
Samba Moderator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: USA Posts: 3,408	It is an interesting situation and will exist in all we do , I guess. In my career, I can tell you that nursing and medical care are not what they were 30 years ago. Some things are great improvements, but many are not. When I talk about old systems and approaches to younger practitioners it is difficult. I think they feel I am an older person talking about something they haven't seen and can't relate to. They think I am not as passionate and must have idealistic memories of the "good 'ol days". Experience is not everything in and of itself either. It matters very much "who" is having the experience. What is their ability to really synthesize and understand what it is they are seeing and experiencing? I too know that people like Anne has experience and knowledge that is worth listening to and trying to grasp. I don't know Cliff so much, but the things he speaks of makes me sense his experience is well "experienced" also. But, like my younger professionals at work, I and others are at a distinct experience and understanding challenge through no fault of our own, of course. The dog pictured in Anne's picture from her friend is a magnificent specimen. The dogs looks are the least of what is so impressive in him , I am sure of it. I know he is not the exception in those dogs either. Can such be preserved? Are there enough breeders and dogs to do so? Are there dogs today that resemble them? Would we know one if we saw it!? Heck, I am almost to the point of thinking if I had some dogs with more of the "older" traits, would there even be anyone around who knew how to work them?? Also, I think it is so that people like Cliff, Anne, Doc and others... they did not grow up with "ScH" dogs,or "show" dogs, or "pet"dogs so much. They were introduced to German Shepherd Dogs. The split was much less, the variation in the dogs obviously less. I do know that because of this, they really are proponents of the breed and not so much any "lines" or venues. Last edited by Samba; 03-21-2010 at 10:59 AM.

03-21-2010, 11:07 PM	#420 (permalink)
Raziel Knighted Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 2,941	they look very diff. More like a doberman face.........more thin maybe thats just me.....? __________________ Kilo- GSD

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03-21-2010, 09:14 AM	#412 (permalink)
cliffson1 Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,170	Ruby Tuesday, thanks for the kind words but if I am a coauthor on the book it may bomb!! Robin, Robin, Robin, youth has its passion and this is very good. Age has its experience and usually tempers the passion somewhat.(hopefully). Now how could I have disappointed you when I haven't weighed in on this thread with MY thoughts. One of the reasons I haven't weighed in because the topic was about old fashioned German Shepherds and many people were going to give replies who weren't even born when old fashioned GS were around. So to me they can only state read facts or hearsay as they don't have a point of reference.(Kinda like yesterday when a 16 year old kid in our club with two left feet was telling me why his showline DOBE isn't doing long bites like other dogs is because John and I won't move him along fast enough. Dog has horrible nerves. And John looks at me after he left(John has trained dogs for a living for 42 years, I only have 38), and said Don't you love it when a 16 year old is telling you how to train a dog!!!) I know some people get tired of me talking experience, so I've cut back instead of arguing with the sixteen year old. But as to my statement, if you read Anne's statement, Everything she wrote in that post is accurate to my way of thinking. These are the same things I've experienced as a person who has bred and WORKED dogs for many many years. I honestly believe the conformation ring and the sport world has had a profound negative impact on the breed in the past twenty years. Anne has a profound love for the breed and is doing everything she can to help the breed by posting on this forum and maybe some people will recognize the value of her post and change some of their perspectives on the breed. I have learned a lot from Anne on this board in training and on the breed and in personal conversations. I KNOW she knows what she is talking about!! She just tells it like it is and that is what the breed needs but it has to be from somebody who has bred and worked dogs to be able to know what to breed for. Sch and conformation is no longer conducive to supporting true German Shepherd temperament, and I have said this for a long time on this list and I can't change to what I don't believe. Really read what she wrote and you will see good information...don't worry about the breed is past saving part, as I believe Anne is only trying to convey the dire situation the breed is in. Nobody loves the breed any more than her, you, me, Doc, Chris, RT, Samba, Lies, Fred, Lisa, etc. But some have a wider point of reference in action and experience and I choose to listen to them if it rings true...JMO..peace!

03-21-2010, 09:20 AM	#413 (permalink)
Dainerra Knighted Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: N. Central Arkansas Posts: 2,599	I think the main complaint is breeder's who say that they are breeding "what the public wants" Sorry, but John Q Public doesn't KNOW what he wants. "I want a giant GSD like I remember from childhood" umm you do realize that you were 3 feet tall so EVERYTHING looked big to you, right?? My daughter is very petite; a 5 years old she and Rayden could look eye to eye (her standing, him sitting) So should people breed a dog big enough to look her in the eye because that's what she remembers?? At 9, she isn't a lot taller! So when she finally hits a growth spurt, should we breed 5 foot tall GSDs? "Bigger is better" SUVs, houses, dogs, meals, french fries, soda.. if a little is good, bigger is better, right?? "My dog at home weighs 130lbs" I doubt it. Rayden weighs 83 lbs. Sure he's got a lot of hair so looks bigger, but not that much! Then they tell me "oh he's the same size as my dog at home and HE weighs at least 140" Then people look at Freya and say "OH, she's just a baby, what's she weigh 30-40lbs?" umm wrong again, she weighs 70. Sure she looks delicate and petite beside Rayden, but she's a GIRL. Not to mention that people are used to seeing dogs that look like beer kegs with legs anyway... "Oh he's beautiful! I want a dog just like him" minus the exercise, training, protectiveness, of course. I want him to love all people and all dogs. I want a dog that acts like a lab, but looks like a GSD. of course, minus the people that act afraid - I don't want anyone afraid of my dog. "I like smart dogs" no, John Q. Public likes OBEDIENT dogs. smart dogs can be a pain in the rump for the average owner. They need a job or they WILL make their own. and most likely you won't like it. About schutzhund not testing for the qualities that you want, what is it that you are looking for? (I'm too lazy to go back and read) I want a GSD that is protective. Loyal. Smart. Obedient. Works well with me. Has an off-switch. All of those are easily tested for with schutzhund. Though it's not the titles themselves, but the knowledge of the person working the dog that I want to hear. I see ads in the paper all the time for GSDs. "Great pets. beautiful colors" "old fashioned" "giant" "quiet and gentle" All they want is a dollar. I've seen some of the dogs that they are selling. They barely look like shepherds! but, people buy them by the dozens because thats "what the public wants" The public wants a cheap, no training/housebreaking/work required dog. One who's hair will match the furniture. That magically knows if the person about to knock on the door is Aunt Betty that hasn't visited in 20 years or an annoying vacuum salesman. That loves everyone and every animal. But is scary and will eat bad people. But that everyone else would NEVER be afraid of. and then, of course, you don't want the dog to herd the cat. or the running screaming kids. I don't mind people who breed over-sized GSDs that ARE GSDs. People like Doc who are breeding what THEY believe that a GSD should be. I DO mind people who are breeding huge dogs that mostly look like GSDs. but don't act like them. And the only reason they are doing it is because they sell.

03-21-2010, 01:45 PM	#416 (permalink)
cliffson1 Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,170	Samba, your last paragraph has a lot of truth in it. I have said a hundred times on this forum, when I started out Show dogs were working dogs were pet dogs in homes!! To me that is what the breed is all about...why would I want to encourage this separation mentality of show lines vs working lines. They are here at present but that does not mean my training regiment or my conformation dog has to conform to these new separations. The biggest problems with the breed today is nerve strength...as Anne stated most people don't know nerve strength to evaluate it. Conformation dogs and sport dogs don't need nerve strength to be successful anymore. Nerve strength allows the same dog to be able to be a pet, military dog, herding dog, or seeing-eye dog depending on who's hands he went to. Now we have one camp with more drive than nerve, another camp with more pretty than nerve, etc. I also think that Dainerra wrote a very good post that has a lot of truth in it. As for oversized German Shepherds, when I was in the military we had 250 dogs at the kennel and some of them were definitely oversized. They were military working dogs and were acceptable to me. Lrt me state MY position on oversized GS. I would breed to an oversized German Shepherd if he possessed the genetics and physical characteristics that I need for my female. I would not breed FOR oversized German Shepherds specifically, not because they are oversized, but because to continually do it would narrow the genepool from a phenotype position and eventually a genotype position. (Pheno being physical expression of dog, and geno being bloodlines of dog) And everyone knows how I feel about narrowing the genepool. JMO

03-21-2010, 06:18 PM	#417 (permalink)
Doc Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,245	Thanks to Anne and Cliff for you knowledge, years of experience and devotion to the German shepherd dogs we use to have. I appreciate both of you sharing your take on today's German shepherd. I guess if one has never seen or been around the dogs from yester-years, then they really have no clue what we spent most of lives with or the love and appreciation we gained from these special dogs.

03-21-2010, 09:36 PM	#418 (permalink)
RubyTuesday Master Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 868	Dainerra, I live in a bad neighborhood. Too often the nervous nellies who buy guns & shoot at shadows also acquire snarling, snappy unreliable curs. These so called PPD menace the many innocent people (including young children) that live here. In even the worst neighborhoods the vast majority of people are innocent & don't deserve to be at risk from the 'good guys' as well as the baddies. (Note, these ill bred, poorly trained dogs are not to be confused with legit PPD. Please don't think I'm confusing the two) I want a tough minded, discerning, deep thinking, well reasoned dog. IF s/he's appropriately protective that's a plus but it's imperative the dog have a solid, stable disposition that doesn't spook easily or react without thinking. My dogs must be over all reliable with people, good with other animals & excellent with children. The GS from my childhood were larger than the medium sized dogs promoted by some SchH enthusiasts. IF it was simply a relativity thing, then Goldens, Labs, Collies would also appear significantly smaller today, but they don't. My parents, uncles & aunts, who were adults when I was a child, would remember GS as medium sized rather than larger, yet they too remember the GS being a large rather than medium sized dog. Larger in & of itself is neither good nor bad. I like 'em big (tall & lean), but that's simply my preference. And as I've also stated, size is not my prime consideration. There are good, bad & indifferent breeders of all 'types' & lines. Some SchH breeders select for a GS that's for my taste excessively sharp, hyper reactive & not enough of a thinker. Some oversized GS breeders prefer a GS that IMO is too soft, overly dependent & lacks spark. True byb of all types simply produce whatever comes about following essentially random couplings. Judging good breeders by the dogs produced by poor to middling breeders is simply unfair regardless of type. Samba, that's an excellent post. IMO, GS people should be aware of an increasing need for working dogs of all sizes. MvS looked to the future when developing the breed & envisioned a working dog that would not become an anachronism with the inevitable decline of pastoral canine jobs. It seems that even as the world of working dogs is expanding, the world of working GS is contracting. That simply shouldn't be. Cliff, I stumbled across some very interesting articles from a Seppala Husky breeder. I was in the middle of a 15" work break & didn't get into it very far but he's clearly an independent thinker. Although the Seppala Huskies are his passion, most of the info is generally applicable to anyone breeding. Have you seen it? I thought of you while perusing the material.