Old fashioned? REALLY???

[Samba]

I believe the pendulum will swing far out before it comes back, if getting back is possible. Seems to be the way things go.

[RubyTuesday]

Originally Posted by Liesje
Health....I am interested in this, mainly how do we even compare? Was EPI, SIBO, bad allergies, Mega-E diagnosed 60+ years ago? It seems even now many of these major problems are complicated to diagnose and treat.

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday
Lies, some older books analyzed specific dogs & provided detailed commentary regarding health, temperament & conformation issues seen in the offspring. Some were known to throw digestive problems. Even without a medical diagnosis, such dogs should have been bred with particular care, if at all. Unfortunately breeding became all about winning for the sake of winning regardless of the cost to the dogs themselves. *sigh*A breeder who's extraordinarily careful about all the wrong things will reap only grief.

Originally Posted by Liesje
And I think the point that several people have made is that health is not the ONLY priority when it comes to breeding, at least not for many breeders. I personally would rather have a dog with hip dysplasia than one with a poor temperament. I really don't see anything in your statement that conflicts with how good breeders are still breeding. Yes, there are breeders who breed unhealthy dogs that are known to throw unhealthy dogs, but that doesn't give us the right to make blanket assumptions that show line people only care about shows or working line people only care about Schutzhund. Your statement about breeding for the sake of winning may not even apply to the majority of the breeders, maybe only the large commercial kennels that earn the most show success and PR, but they do not represent me or my dogs or you or your dogs.

My response to your post was to provide historic information that indicates digestive disorders have been present in the breed for many years. It wasn’t intended as an argument. Personally, when I speak of a ‘healthy’ dog I mean physically robust, constitutionally sound & mentally/emotionally strong & stable. I don’t consider a dog with a poor temperament to be ‘healthy’ although one could qualify the dog as physically healthy.

You are correct that the latter part of my statement was too general. I was speaking specifically of the AKC conformation circus. While I realize there are exceptionally good AKC show breeders, what I’ve seen suggests they’re overwhelmingly the exception to the rule. GS, IMO, are a notable example of this, but there are many other breeds it applies to as well.

I believe that breeders of all *types* of GS, whether SchH, companion, SL or WL, err here & there in their emphasis & focus, but far too many AKC show breeders undermine strength, ability & natural conformation in the quest to make (or match) the next *hot* thing.

[cliffson1]

Forty-one pages and I haven't said a peep!!! Woowee!! I did it for all my haters out there...LOL.
The only thing I will say is that I agree with EVERYTHING that ANNE,(Vandal), said and I also concur with her assessment of the breed at this point....peace!

[RubyTuesday]

Originally Posted by robinhuerta
This thread started because of opinions on breeding "specifically for over-sized, old fashioned looking"?? GSD......

Actually, it was started to bash a specific breeder yet again, but the link to that breeder was (in accordance with board regs) removed this time. I like the breeders dogs & happily live with two of them. Despite that, I’ve never requested the threads bashing her be edited or removed. IMO, a decent breeder can stand the heat. She’s not perfect, but she has successfully bred healthy, sound, long lived GS with terrific temperaments for decades.

Hello, Cliff...I haven't gotten as far as that yet. I learn a great deal from Anne. Whether I agree with her or not, I always enjoy her posts, so that's something to look forward to. I still think you, Anne & Khawk should collaborate on a book. What if I promised to buy a hundred copies(or at least a dozen)???

[RubyTuesday]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild
Much of it is from discussions on the same or similar topics in the past, claiming that working lines or "SchH dogs" can't be pets, etc.... And it is very often touted on the websites of those breeding the "old fashioned" and "pet line" type dogs. Sometimes they outright state it, but almost always there is some reference to something along the lines of "our dogs don't do SchH/bite people/attack" or "our dogs aren't crazy and high drive" but "unlike those dogs they make great pets". The implications there being obvious; that working lines/SchH dogs are crazy, unsuited to family life, etc...

But some specific examples from this thread (and I can't believe I just wasted a half hour of my life reading through 30+ pages to pull them out):

That GSDs can no longer work (with the implication that attempts to preserve such by those who focus on it are futile), and completely ignoring 2 key facts. One, that many organizations still do consider the GSD as the breed of choice. Two, that there are many, many reasons that have caused some organizations to move away from the GSD that have absolutely nothing to do with GSD working ability. The comments about Mals in military work, which are not entirely true, and comparing the GSD to a Mal, for anyone who knows squat about Mals, indicates GSDs aren't crazy enough.

Chris, thanks for your response. IMO, you’re being more than a little unfair. You originally stated,
According to various comments in this thread, the "SchH breeder":
Is obsessed with size and only wants small dogs.
His dogs can't be family companions.
His dogs aren't good with kids.
His dogs will eat cats, small dogs, livestock or anything else that moves.
His dogs will knock down Granny.

One side claims these dogs are crazy nutjobs, can't live in the house, can't be companions, and are a danger to every living creature (especially kids, cats and Grannies).

Only Doc made a statement here that could be construed as ‘anti SchH dog’ but he also stated here (& elsewhere) that he admires your dogs so I think it’s obvious that wasn’t his intent. Anti-SchH, anti-WL statements made on the board are usually made by new members woefully inexperienced with GS in general, & SchH or WL in particular. To prove a case with their statements is (IMO) making a weak case. Ditto using statements made on some breeders' web sites, some of which are inferences rather than outright remarks. There are numerous web sites for WL breeders which claim only their GS is the *true* GS & make ridiculous & erroneous remarks about companion lines, over sized GS or SL GS. In fact there are numerous erroneous remarks in this thread that again raise the tired & inaccurate assumptions that oversized GS are unhealthy, short lived, especially prone to HD, can’t & don’t work.

The view that SchH GS can’t work is surely a minority view. I don’t believe they’re the only GS capable of working. In some venues, they might not even be the best GS for the task, but I don’t think statements from 1 or 2 members indicate a general dissing of the SchH GS.

Originally Posted by Chris Wild
And the accusation that "SchH breeders" are the ones (and apparently the only ones) who obsess about size. Something completely untrue, and you don't have to take my word for it just look at the dogs and lines those folks have and you will see far more variance in size than in any other subset of the breed and any other competition venue.

IMO, clearly SchH (& to a lesser extent SL) enthusiasts, *are * obsessed with over sized GS. Also white GS & until very recently LC GS. I’ve yet to see any of the many members who prefer oversized GS (or LC or WGS) starting threads to slam & spread misinformation on those GS they don’t prefer.

In this thread it seems that attitudes are softening just a bit, but is that genuinely the case, or have some heavily favored breeders thrown too many outsized pups for it to be otherwise?

[Samba]

I have not seen outsized dogs rejected out of hand by working dog folks. They are the first to accept variation in favor of work ethic. The show folks obviously don't mind an over sized dog as I think they may finally have been required to wicket as the dogs were getting so large.

But I think this is a somewhat different thing than the type of grossly outsize breedings for generations for what appears very much a market niche.

Of course there can be criticism of types of show breedings and working breedings. It is not necessarily a bad thing or everyone will just drink their respective koolaide and sit happily in their world with their fellow groupies and the breed be darned.

[RubyTuesday]

Samba, there's is a huge difference b/w reasoned disagreement & the bash&trash crud that proliferates in these threads. Criticism is one thing. All breeds (IMO) benefit from impassioned discussions about what is best or right for the breed. The GS needs such discussions as much as most breeds. However, piling on with misinformation, inaccuracies, innuendo & gross generalizations is not at all the same thing.

Oversized dogs are outside the standard. Period. They are not necessarily fat, lazy, clumsy, inept, unhealthy, short lived, prone to HD, weak nerved, excessively soft or incapable of working. Nor were they always outside the standard.

For numerous reasons, both practical & aesthetic, many people including myself, find these GS attractive & desirable. Trashing&Bashing doesn't change that. Most members who prefer the oversized GS either fade away to friendlier corners of the board or all too often leave entirely. Now that's sad & (IMO) accomplishes very little. Perhaps others disagree.

[Vandal]

I have a friend who has been breeding for almost 50 years now. She likes her dogs larger and these are some of the best German Shepherds I have ever seen. More agile than most smaller GSDs, and they basically walk upright....always on their rear legs when in their runs and walking with their front paws on the fencing. Not only are they great looking dogs, they work better than almost all of the dogs I see nowadays. These are some serious and no nonsense dogs, true GSDs in every sense. Older bloodlines , so, yeah, "Old Fashioned".
Here is one of her males.

[Castlemaid]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

For numerous reasons, both practical & aesthetic, many people including myself, find these GS attractive & desirable. Trashing&Bashing doesn't change that. Most members who prefer the oversized GS either fade away to friendlier corners of the board or all too often leave entirely. Now that's sad & (IMO) accomplishes very little. Perhaps others disagree.

I don't agree that these discussions are nothing but trash and bash. Many people have said over and over and over, that if someone likes the large sizes, that is fine. If a breeder wants to breed oversized dogs, that is their perjorative. The issues that are at the forefront, is the claim by some breeders that the oversized dogs are "old fashioned" (worthy of discussion), the unsubstantiated claims by many breeders of oversized dogs for working ability (if a breeder does breed oversized dogs and claims working ability and can subtantiate their claim other than "I know my dogs", that is fine), and the focus on size and weight as the main selling point (like those are the things that matter the most?).

And I doubt that many people know which particular breeder's site started the thread. I don't think it matters as there are a zillion breeders of oversized GSDs out there if you do a google search, and all the sites are pretty similar in pictures, breeding philosophy, and content.

And if someone posts that in their view, the oversized, and often overweight dogs is not what they feel a GSD should look like - (and I'm not saying that the breeders and owners who own breed and own these dogs have overweight dogs, but there are many examples of oversized dogs all over the 'net that are clearly overweight) - then they are bashing for stating the obvious.

I mean, I have a Sable Working line dog, with plenty of working drives, no issues taking a sleeve (haha, I think he surprised the helper yesterday by how hard he hit! -). My dog is what I believe the epitome of a GSD should be. That is what I wanted, that is what I am happy with. So if someone posted:
"I don't like working line dogs. I don't like the Sables especially, they look weird. In my opinion, a GSD should be a classic Black and Tan, and should be easy enough to manage and excercise to make a good pet for the average family, and should never ever even think of grabbing a person's arm, even if they are wearing a bite sleeve". I'd say fine, I understand, I don't agree, but I am sure that you can find a good GSD that will have the lower drive levels that you are comfortable with, and be what you would like and feel is correct. I would not feel offended, I would not feel that I, as the owner of a Sable working line is being bashed. I would not feel that the breeder of my dog, whom I hold in high esteem is being belittled for breeding goals that this person feels is producing GSDs that they just "don't agree with" .

Yet everytime such a discussion comes up about the oversized dogs, those that have a different view of how GSDs should look and be are bashing and slinging crud. That I find offensive. I find the language and the accusations offensive, belicose and inflamatory.

To be fair, there may be some posts that are bashing - but in general, this whole thread has been a good back-and-forth between different camps, and to dismiss the whole discussion, the whole thread as nothing but crud and bashing of a specific breeder (which it isn't), is not a fair.

[robinhuerta]

If one only complains and does nothing.....then they are at as much fault, as the ones that continue to create the problems within the breed.
The dogs of yesterday are gone.....the dogs of today need our help....so the dogs of tomorrow can be better.
The complaints and excuses have gotten old.....it must be easier for some to just stand on the side and do nothing. It's easier to point fingers and shake fists....
We can't "fix" yesterday.
If one believes that this breed has become so awful & hopeless....then why not find another breed.?
Hopefully, there will be some....that share the passion, to continue & fight.
These discussions seem to always end the same way.....(show people ruined the breed, working folks wrecked the breed, others created the health problems, & people that believe in the standard, are killing the breed)......I guess? those who do nothing are "saving" the breed??.........whatever helps you feel better....pretty hypocritical sounding to me.
As mentioned before.......I'll continue to ruin the breed my way....and others can ruin it their way....
You may have your topic back,.. what an enjoyable (stick poking, finger pointing, blame basing, excuse making) time we all shared!

Cliff....first time, you've actually disappointed me....