Old fashioned? REALLY??? - Page 38

Mrs.K · 03-20-2010, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crs996

I guess they never really worked then, only the modern smaller GSD's do. After all, many of the "Old Fashioned" breeders are going for exactly this weight category, or bigger, and one even said that they breed GSD's "you remember as a child". I assume this means long, long ago, so maybe the working GSD is actually a modern invention.

I don't remember GSD's being that big when I was a child and my parents don't either. In fact there haven't been many dogs around when my parents were born because people ate them during WWII so they wouldn't starve to death. Nobody wants to talk about it though...

However, the GSD I know was always a working dog and there are still professional Shepherds out there that is using the GSD instead of a Border Collie...

codmaster · 03-20-2010, 01:16 AM

Or maybe sombody's imagination?

Mrs.K · 03-20-2010, 01:22 AM

Think about it. For a five year old a GSD is HUGE. Maybe that is why some people remember the GSD to be so big because GSD's seem bigger than they are if you are just one head bigger than they are.

**Samba** · 03-20-2010, 02:15 AM

Well, it seems there is nothing new under the sun, as my mother always said.

von Stephanitz had his issues with people breeding oversize dogs and he was not in praise of the practice. He even noted its occurrence in those with a propensity to use it as a marketing tool.

"General breeding experience suggests that there is no danger of generating a generalized exceeding of breed accepted size limits by repeated use of these large dogs; this is especially because our breeders luckily seem to be less affected by the previous “need for size”. Even previously, this generally affected only those breeders that thought large product was more marketable, and even then oversize was generally only on paper (i.e. in the for sale classifieds)"

from this interesting article

Lothar Quoll Part 1 German Shepherd Dog Forum Ireland

You can see where some of these old lines had a propensity to largeness but you can also note that large then was not overly large at all. I am still looking for the gentle giants in these founding dogs....

While M v S may be spinning in his grave about many of the issues with the breed today, he can give a turn or two for the return of the desire for the ever bigger, incorrect but "marketable" dog. He thought this practice had been given up by the majority of breeders and that is still true. But for some.... it's baaaaack!

mjbgsd · 03-20-2010, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crs996

Good for you!!! I really applaud someone taking a beautiful dog like that (a sable even!) to a show. The judges must have been scrambling.. lol
If I saw a dog like that at an AKC show I would stand and applaud.

Showing is not my first priority as obedience, agility, and herding are but I will continue to have him shown in the future, I'm just going to wait until he has a more adult look to him as right now he looks funny, lol.
The funny thing was, so many exhibitors were like, "I want that color in our lines we never see such dark sables!!" It's funny how they mostly cared about his coloring and not his steller ability to walk on concrete and not slip all the time....lol

Doc · 03-20-2010, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robinhuerta

Ya know Doc.......you are the first person to continually degrade "breeders" other than yourself. You seem to put yourself on quite a high pedestal above "most of us". You condemn those that are successful, and that their achievements mean nothing....but then...you feel as though...your achievements are solid.
This thread started because of opinions on breeding "specifically for over-sized, old fashioned looking"?? GSD......and a nerve must have been hit.
Because once people (including myself) defended, breeding to the official "standard" of the GSD (including all aspects of it).....you have done nothing but try to "trash" accomplishments of other breeders, and belittling achievements of most all, whom do not agree with your personal breeding theories or practices. You continue to accuse many of creating the "health issues" of this breed..? How does being successful in any "venue", create that? So...if more choose "not" to accomplish anything, and breed specifically to promote solely "family companion dogs"....this breed's health issues start to amend itself.??
The health issues in this breed have become what they are "today", because many breeders hadn't thought enough about them "yesterday"....and some will think even less "tomorrow".
People that continue to promote this breed for everything it was supposed to be....are not the people that are creating it's demise.
It's sad, how you continue to "direct" digs to some of us....but become agitated when someone disagrees with you.
I guess, I'll choose to "ruin" the breed my way......and you can choose to "ruin" it your-way.

I have never endorsed 150 pound German shepherds, Shiloh/King Shepherds, or 30"+ dogs - never. Over sized, yes. Females between 75 and 90 pounds, males between 90 and 120 (if healthy, in shape, not fat) is over the Standard. Females that range from 24 to 26 inches and males from 26 to 28 are over the standard. Are these "giant" German shepherds? Perhaps in some peoples eyes they are. Dogs this size are not genetic "giants"; they are just "big" German shepherds that are outside of the Standard. They maintain all the mental and physical qualities of any other German shepherd dog.

I haven't trashed any breeders unless what I have said can apply to them. I don't make this crap up, the records are full of it. Poor nerves, missing teeth, poor genetics, yellow eye color, and the like have all been faults of Champions as far back as the 1930s and probably earlier. It's documented in several places by someone other than me. Read Willis' book. Yet even then these dogs were bred because they were "Champions" and passed along these issues. And it continues today. Did/do all breeders of German shepherds do this? I never said they did. If the shoe fits wear it.

Were the German shepherd dogs actually "bigger" when someone was a child? From a genetic standpoint, it would not be unheard of that there were "big" German shepherds around during one's childhood. But how big is big? It's anyone's guess. Words like "big", "large" "huge" are all relative terms with no assigned quantitative value - particularly when talking about one's childhood.

There are no requirements that state that a German shepherd dog must be tested, titled, or shown in anything or event for it to be an acceptable representation of the breed. Some people place a value on titles and ribbons, others don't - that is a fact.

Much like back in the beginning, someone must play the role as the devil's advocate - even in the German shepherd world - so we can constantly strive for the golden middle.

robinhuerta · 03-20-2010, 08:59 AM

Doc...you are wrong about "requirements" not being needed to test this breed....Max himself started the ball rolling when he introduced the "Conformation Shows" and created the "temperament" & "structural" standard set forth for the GSD......his followers then created the test of Schutzhund. Schutzhund was created to actually "test" the dog's worthiness of continuing the gene pool for breeding. It was "originally" created to "test" the instincts and temperaments of the GSD breed that Max created.
There were Breeding Surveys & Herding Tests that were also introduced for breed "worthiness".
The "tests" of today are NOT how they were originally designed, today they have become a Sport. But there is still requirements for breeding in Germany today.
Everyone likes to quote Max, and pick & choose "phrases" as they seem fit......but the truth is....he started/created the breed AND it's (so called tests).
You have no idea at what applies to anyone.....records of whose dogs?
Straw grasping at it's best.
Poor nerves, eye color, missing teeth etc etc....whose dogs?....
Breeders & owners that compete in "breed worthiness" tests would be hard pressed, to do well with dogs that exhibit such obvious faults.
I own & have read many books on this breed, but reading books is one thing...and living it is another........I've chosen the way of "practise what you preach".
You constantly throw the word Champion around....like the plague.
What Champions?...where are these Champions of the Schutzhund Sport that continue to cause the fall of the breed?....ruining it from within?
You speak like a bitter person who loves his/her dogs, but when confronted on their "beliefs in breeding" & contributions in keeping this breed strong.......you lash out with accusations & woes against others.
Big dogs....come on! There are many dogs that range in the 65cm to 68cm, that have done extremely well in both Schutzhund AND the Conformation ring. A wonderful dog of over-height or under-height, is just that.....a wonderful dog of over-height or under-height.
Most quality German judges would not "throw the baby out with the bath water."
But if these specimens were not a good representation of the breed in other factors.....not breed worthy would be their label.
As for the "shoe fitting".....I'll try your shoe on the day you can wear some of ours...or even mine.
Your responses are becoming shallow.

onyx'girl · 03-20-2010, 09:10 AM

I would much rather support a breeder who is showing, working with their dogs than just breeding them.
Anyone can purchase a "champion" "world class" and breed.

Those that work to title and put the best possible match together to better the breed is where I would place my hard earned $.
And those breeders would take that $ and put it back into working, showing, health testing and proving their program is sound. Knowing what they have produced because they don't have puppies going every which way so they cannot keep track of them. And those pups are probably being worked and titled too!

Yesterday I heard a quote on Dave Ramsey~
A business makes money, otherwise it is a hobby.
I would rather support the hobby breeder who is breeding to better the breed and within the standard.

**JeanKBBMMMAAN** · 03-20-2010, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

Think about it. For a five year old a GSD is HUGE. Maybe that is why some people remember the GSD to be so big because GSD's seem bigger than they are if you are just one head bigger than they are.

YES. I love these pictures - early 70's, NY, NY. My grandma's neighbor, King.

I thought he was GIANT:

Not so much!

Doc · 03-20-2010, 09:18 AM

Read the recorded history of the champions. Even the ones von Stephintz awarded.

And show me where in this country, testing and showing your dog is required in order for a dog to be a German shepherd?? Where? Show me? Even all the German shepherds in 1900's were not shown nor tested - they were if they wanted titles but I'm sure the farmers were still breeding German shepherds without a review from the SV.

My knowledge is found in the written history of this breed - something you have obviously have not read or you wouldn't ask such questions. I don't make up the history - go read a book or two about the history and the past Champions of German shepherd dog, you might learn something. I can even point out a blue German shepherd that was awarded the Champion title.

You don't want to wear my shoes, your feet may get dirty.

I'm way past the bitter stage - if I ever had one, I'm basking in the twilight of my years.

03-20-2010, 02:15 AM	#374 (permalink)
Samba Administrator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: USA Posts: 6,447	Well, it seems there is nothing new under the sun, as my mother always said. von Stephanitz had his issues with people breeding oversize dogs and he was not in praise of the practice. He even noted its occurrence in those with a propensity to use it as a marketing tool. "General breeding experience suggests that there is no danger of generating a generalized exceeding of breed accepted size limits by repeated use of these large dogs; this is especially because our breeders luckily seem to be less affected by the previous “need for size”. Even previously, this generally affected only those breeders that thought large product was more marketable, and even then oversize was generally only on paper (i.e. in the for sale classifieds)" from this interesting article Lothar Quoll Part 1 German Shepherd Dog Forum Ireland You can see where some of these old lines had a propensity to largeness but you can also note that large then was not overly large at all. I am still looking for the gentle giants in these founding dogs.... While M v S may be spinning in his grave about many of the issues with the breed today, he can give a turn or two for the return of the desire for the ever bigger, incorrect but "marketable" dog. He thought this practice had been given up by the majority of breeders and that is still true. But for some.... it's baaaaack! Last edited by Samba; 03-20-2010 at 02:20 AM.

03-20-2010, 08:59 AM	#377 (permalink)
robinhuerta Knighted Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,224	Doc...you are wrong about "requirements" not being needed to test this breed....Max himself started the ball rolling when he introduced the "Conformation Shows" and created the "temperament" & "structural" standard set forth for the GSD......his followers then created the test of Schutzhund. Schutzhund was created to actually "test" the dog's worthiness of continuing the gene pool for breeding. It was "originally" created to "test" the instincts and temperaments of the GSD breed that Max created. There were Breeding Surveys & Herding Tests that were also introduced for breed "worthiness". The "tests" of today are NOT how they were originally designed, today they have become a Sport. But there is still requirements for breeding in Germany today. Everyone likes to quote Max, and pick & choose "phrases" as they seem fit......but the truth is....he started/created the breed AND it's (so called tests). You have no idea at what applies to anyone.....records of whose dogs? Straw grasping at it's best. Poor nerves, eye color, missing teeth etc etc....whose dogs?.... Breeders & owners that compete in "breed worthiness" tests would be hard pressed, to do well with dogs that exhibit such obvious faults. I own & have read many books on this breed, but reading books is one thing...and living it is another........I've chosen the way of "practise what you preach". You constantly throw the word Champion around....like the plague. What Champions?...where are these Champions of the Schutzhund Sport that continue to cause the fall of the breed?....ruining it from within? You speak like a bitter person who loves his/her dogs, but when confronted on their "beliefs in breeding" & contributions in keeping this breed strong.......you lash out with accusations & woes against others. Big dogs....come on! There are many dogs that range in the 65cm to 68cm, that have done extremely well in both Schutzhund AND the Conformation ring. A wonderful dog of over-height or under-height, is just that.....a wonderful dog of over-height or under-height. Most quality German judges would not "throw the baby out with the bath water." But if these specimens were not a good representation of the breed in other factors.....not breed worthy would be their label. As for the "shoe fitting".....I'll try your shoe on the day you can wear some of ours...or even mine. Your responses are becoming shallow. __________________ Huerta Hof German Shepherds www.teamhuertahof.com ....where breeding is still considered an art....

03-20-2010, 09:10 AM	#378 (permalink)
onyx'girl Crowned Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: SW, MI Posts: 17,605	I would much rather support a breeder who is showing, working with their dogs than just breeding them. Anyone can purchase a "champion" "world class" and breed. Those that work to title and put the best possible match together to better the breed is where I would place my hard earned $. And those breeders would take that $ and put it back into working, showing, health testing and proving their program is sound. Knowing what they have produced because they don't have puppies going every which way so they cannot keep track of them. And those pups are probably being worked and titled too! Yesterday I heard a quote on Dave Ramsey~ A business makes money, otherwise it is a hobby. I would rather support the hobby breeder who is breeding to better the breed and within the standard. __________________ Jane~ Kept by Onyx, Kacie and Gideon v Wildhaus aka Karlo Last edited by onyx'girl; 03-20-2010 at 09:15 AM.

03-20-2010, 09:18 AM	#380 (permalink)
Doc Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,605	Read the recorded history of the champions. Even the ones von Stephintz awarded. And show me where in this country, testing and showing your dog is required in order for a dog to be a German shepherd?? Where? Show me? Even all the German shepherds in 1900's were not shown nor tested - they were if they wanted titles but I'm sure the farmers were still breeding German shepherds without a review from the SV. My knowledge is found in the written history of this breed - something you have obviously have not read or you wouldn't ask such questions. I don't make up the history - go read a book or two about the history and the past Champions of German shepherd dog, you might learn something. I can even point out a blue German shepherd that was awarded the Champion title. You don't want to wear my shoes, your feet may get dirty. I'm way past the bitter stage - if I ever had one, I'm basking in the twilight of my years. Last edited by Doc; 03-20-2010 at 09:23 AM.

03-20-2010, 01:16 AM	#372 (permalink)
codmaster Crowned Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: California, US Posts: 4,762	Or maybe sombody's imagination?

03-20-2010, 01:22 AM	#373 (permalink)
Mrs.K Crowned Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 6,381	Think about it. For a five year old a GSD is HUGE. Maybe that is why some people remember the GSD to be so big because GSD's seem bigger than they are if you are just one head bigger than they are.

Remove Advertisements Sponsored Links
German Shepherd Advertisement