Old fashioned? REALLY??? - Page 3

Lin · 03-10-2010, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fightin14

This is not always true, not all breeding does the breed good. Some of the American show lines are **** near crippled in my opinion.

Yes, they are. Same with some of the german show lines with their roach backs. I don't consider those breeding to extremes to be bettering the breed. In my opinion a responsible breeder is working on everything the GSD is meant to be, a well rounded, healthy, intelligent, WORKING dog that is also a loyal and protective family member.

I also don't agree with breeders breeding the GSD to only be a family pet. I think there are enough "just" pet quality dogs from responsible breeders. Same with things such as oversize, long coats, dilutes, etc. I don't think the breed should be changed away from working towards a dog that is a couch potato. I think the people that want such a dog would be better off looking at a breed in existance that meets all of their desires, rather than changing the GSD. If you want a lower drive dog, larger dog, furrier dog, look at the Shiloh Shepherd for example.

Doc · 03-10-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.K

@Doc: Well, than we talk about a different breed... to me old fashioned isn't a Shepherd that is as big and heavy as a big dane. Look at the father of German Shepherds. THAT is old fashioned!

As big as a great dane? Where is that coming from. A German shepherd male that weighs more than 90 pounds and taller than 26" at the withers isn't as big as a great dane.

As far as i know, that particular breeder is not breeding monster German shepherd dogs (150 pounds and 35").

The real issue, IMO, is that John Q Public does not like what the German shepherd has become. They still remember Rinn Tinn Tinn and Braveheart. They see the dog shows and see these "little" German shepherds that "slope" to the ground and wonder what in Hail happened to the German shepherd dog - the ones that were around when they grew up? And what they remember is that "big" dog that was protective but friendly once they got to know you. They could care less about some "Standard"; they aren't looking to show a dog or "work" a dog except maybe in agility, throw a frezbe, or fetch a ball, and learn to sit, come, stay, and down. So they find a breeder that has that type of dog. Is it right? Who is to judge?

But to blast a breeder - especially one that you do not know or know nothing about the dogs they breed and sell - is wrong. Impecable health, temperament, and structure is what a breeder should strive to accomplish regardless of size.

fightin14 · 03-10-2010, 11:31 AM

Yes LIN even some of the german lines are messed up. These dogs should not be used as show dogs in my opinion. I am in total agreement i think people forget what these are dogs are for. A guy i work with just went out and bought a very high quality puppy from from a good working line and he is going to be his house dog. He does not even have a fenced in yard. This dog is going to be inside all the time in a crate. It kind of steams me.

LaRen616 · 03-10-2010, 11:35 AM

Lin

I agree with you and I disagree with you. I would never want to see a GSD become a "couch potato". But not everyone wants to do agility and other work with their GSD. I believe people should only get GSD's if they are "Go Getter" type people. Someone who loves long walks, hiking or jogging. Also not everyone wants to spend lots of money on putting their dogs in agility or herding or some other type work. I got a GSD because they are wonderful companion dogs, good watch dogs, very smart, easy to train and I cant forget BEAUTIFUL dogs. My dog loves TV (as do I) but we get out and do stuff. We are doing our own "Search Work" and I have to say that my dog is very good at it, but we are using treats and ourselves. We put him in a room, we grab a treat and drag it on the floor making loops and what not and then we hide it. We then let him out and tell him "find it" and he puts his nose to the ground and follows the trail to the treat. We also do it with ourselves, we rub all over a towel and we go hide then the person in control of him gives him the towel to smell and then we say "find it" and he comes and gets us. I would also like to make him a therapy dog. Anyways if everyone with GSD's did games like this then I wouldn't have a problem with them owning a GSD. But dont turn this excellent dog into a "couch potato"

Liesje · 03-10-2010, 11:57 AM

Sometimes what makes a great German shepherd isn't what makes a great pet.

Personally I find the prices, guarantees, and all that pretty ridiculous but if that's what people want let them have it. I just wonder when it's no longer a German Shepherd but something else...

Liesje · 03-10-2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

The real issue, IMO, is that John Q Public does not like what the German shepherd has become. They still remember Rinn Tinn Tinn and Braveheart. They see the dog shows and see these "little" German shepherds that "slope" to the ground and wonder what in Hail happened to the German shepherd dog - the ones that were around when they grew up? And what they remember is that "big" dog that was protective but friendly once they got to know you. They could care less about some "Standard"; they aren't looking to show a dog or "work" a dog except maybe in agility, throw a frezbe, or fetch a ball, and learn to sit, come, stay, and down. So they find a breeder that has that type of dog. Is it right? Who is to judge?

To me it sounds like the real issue is that we are letting JQP define what the breed should and shouldn't be. Are we seriously going to create standards and develop breeding programs based on what people saw on TV? That's just a fad, like everyone getting a Dalmation after 101 Dalmations, a Golden or Ambull after Homeward Bound, a JRT after Wishbone....heck even *I* begged my mom for a JRT when I watched Wishbone and after reading what the breed really is, they are probably one of the last breeds I'll ever own now. Same with White Fang, saw the movie and desperately wanted a wolf dog. So should I get to tell the JRT fanciers and wolf hybrid rescues that they are wrong and they need to change their breeding programs because they do not meet my JQP standard which is just based on fond childhood memories of dogs and TV shows?

Doc · 03-10-2010, 12:44 PM

Like I said, the public could care less about a standard. The Standard is written for an entirely different set of people and purpose. The most publicity a German shepherd gets is on one those food sponsored "Championships". And if that's a German shepherd, it's no wonder the public looks for a "different" type. The same could apply to a working show. Dogs that are "doing what they are suppose to do" is often times misunderstood by the public. They are not interested in "that" type of German shepherd. JQP will never write a Standard - they could care less. Heck, "professional" German shepherd owners that show and work their dog can't even agree what the Standar is suppose to be.

Keep writing the Standard and let the numerous judges interpret it - that's the best way to "judge" the German shepherd because the Standard is the Holy Grail - and you see where it has led.

Health, temperament, and structure is the trinity. How that looks is anyone's guess.

Liesje · 03-10-2010, 12:55 PM

I don't really care about the standard in this context. I think breeders should breed what they honest to God feel is right and correct, not what JQP wants them to supply.

Mrs.K · 03-10-2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lin

Yes, they are. Same with some of the german show lines with their roach backs. I don't consider those breeding to extremes to be bettering the breed. In my opinion a responsible breeder is working on everything the GSD is meant to be, a well rounded, healthy, intelligent, WORKING dog that is also a loyal and protective family member.

I also don't agree with breeders breeding the GSD to only be a family pet. I think there are enough "just" pet quality dogs from responsible breeders. Same with things such as oversize, long coats, dilutes, etc. I don't think the breed should be changed away from working towards a dog that is a couch potato. I think the people that want such a dog would be better off looking at a breed in existance that meets all of their desires, rather than changing the GSD. If you want a lower drive dog, larger dog, furrier dog, look at the Shiloh Shepherd for example.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

atravis · 03-10-2010, 02:22 PM

"When breeders choose to ignore the characteristics that a breed (of any kind) was bred "specifically" for....and choose to breed against it...this practise ruins the breed as a whole."

Have you SEEN this breed lately?

The "types" within the breed are so vastly different, that they actually share more differences than things in common.

Put an Am. bred show dog in a room with a DDR dog. Could you GET anymore different?

Who's right in that situation? Who's wrong? Which one is more "correct" or "to the standard"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GSD was designed to be an ALL PURPOSE dog. Being a family pet is a PURPOSE.

These dogs may not have extreme drive... but EXTREME drive is every bit against what this breed "should" be as a 150lb monster. EVERYTHING in moderation, is what Max preached. I wager to think he'd be every bit as disappointed in the high drive prey monsters who can't sit still to save their lives, as he would be of the lazy "house pet" types.

Keep in mind that K9, protection, and SAR are not the ONLY jobs a GSD can do. Therapy work, assistance dogs, and guides are also VERY important working venues. A dog does not have to have fight and prey drive out his *** to be a good working dog.

03-10-2010, 11:57 AM	#25 (permalink)
Liesje Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 12,157	Sometimes what makes a great German shepherd isn't what makes a great pet. Personally I find the prices, guarantees, and all that pretty ridiculous but if that's what people want let them have it. I just wonder when it's no longer a German Shepherd but something else... __________________ UCH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop FO OB1 CL1R CL1F RA TT HIT TDI CGC VPC's Coca-Cola HIT CGC SG UCH Alta-Tollhaus Bono SchH1 T1 FO PA CL1R UNJ UCA HIT TT CGC OFA SG Pantalaimon vom Geistwasser HIT CGC *vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net*

03-10-2010, 12:55 PM	#28 (permalink)
Liesje Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 12,157	I don't really care about the standard in this context. I think breeders should breed what they honest to God feel is right and correct, not what JQP wants them to supply. __________________ UCH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop FO OB1 CL1R CL1F RA TT HIT TDI CGC VPC's Coca-Cola HIT CGC SG UCH Alta-Tollhaus Bono SchH1 T1 FO PA CL1R UNJ UCA HIT TT CGC OFA SG Pantalaimon vom Geistwasser HIT CGC *vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net*

03-10-2010, 02:22 PM	#30 (permalink)
atravis Master Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 561	"When breeders choose to ignore the characteristics that a breed (of any kind) was bred "specifically" for....and choose to breed against it...this practise ruins the breed as a whole." Have you SEEN this breed lately? The "types" within the breed are so vastly different, that they actually share more differences than things in common. Put an Am. bred show dog in a room with a DDR dog. Could you GET anymore different? Who's right in that situation? Who's wrong? Which one is more "correct" or "to the standard"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GSD was designed to be an ALL PURPOSE dog. Being a family pet is a PURPOSE. These dogs may not have extreme drive... but EXTREME drive is every bit against what this breed "should" be as a 150lb monster. EVERYTHING in moderation, is what Max preached. I wager to think he'd be every bit as disappointed in the high drive prey monsters who can't sit still to save their lives, as he would be of the lazy "house pet" types. Keep in mind that K9, protection, and SAR are not the ONLY jobs a GSD can do. Therapy work, assistance dogs, and guides are also VERY important working venues. A dog does not have to have fight and prey drive out his *** to be a good working dog. __________________ Lex~ Mulder- black GSD [Dogster] [Pedigree]

03-10-2010, 11:31 AM	#23 (permalink)
fightin14 Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 120	Yes LIN even some of the german lines are messed up. These dogs should not be used as show dogs in my opinion. I am in total agreement i think people forget what these are dogs are for. A guy i work with just went out and bought a very high quality puppy from from a good working line and he is going to be his house dog. He does not even have a fenced in yard. This dog is going to be inside all the time in a crate. It kind of steams me.

03-10-2010, 11:35 AM	#24 (permalink)
LaRen616 Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 10,331	Lin I agree with you and I disagree with you. I would never want to see a GSD become a "couch potato". But not everyone wants to do agility and other work with their GSD. I believe people should only get GSD's if they are "Go Getter" type people. Someone who loves long walks, hiking or jogging. Also not everyone wants to spend lots of money on putting their dogs in agility or herding or some other type work. I got a GSD because they are wonderful companion dogs, good watch dogs, very smart, easy to train and I cant forget BEAUTIFUL dogs. My dog loves TV (as do I) but we get out and do stuff. We are doing our own "Search Work" and I have to say that my dog is very good at it, but we are using treats and ourselves. We put him in a room, we grab a treat and drag it on the floor making loops and what not and then we hide it. We then let him out and tell him "find it" and he puts his nose to the ground and follows the trail to the treat. We also do it with ourselves, we rub all over a towel and we go hide then the person in control of him gives him the towel to smell and then we say "find it" and he comes and gets us. I would also like to make him a therapy dog. Anyways if everyone with GSD's did games like this then I wouldn't have a problem with them owning a GSD. But dont turn this excellent dog into a "couch potato"

03-10-2010, 12:44 PM	#27 (permalink)
Doc Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,570	Like I said, the public could care less about a standard. The Standard is written for an entirely different set of people and purpose. The most publicity a German shepherd gets is on one those food sponsored "Championships". And if that's a German shepherd, it's no wonder the public looks for a "different" type. The same could apply to a working show. Dogs that are "doing what they are suppose to do" is often times misunderstood by the public. They are not interested in "that" type of German shepherd. JQP will never write a Standard - they could care less. Heck, "professional" German shepherd owners that show and work their dog can't even agree what the Standar is suppose to be. Keep writing the Standard and let the numerous judges interpret it - that's the best way to "judge" the German shepherd because the Standard is the Holy Grail - and you see where it has led. Health, temperament, and structure is the trinity. How that looks is anyone's guess.

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