Old fashioned? REALLY???

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Dainerra

The "anti-big" side is talking out against breeders who are selling dogs that are over 30" tall, 100+ lbs (some sites have them at 140!!). Dogs that even the "old-fashioned" fans say are too big.

Correct

[Doc]

Originally Posted by crs996

As has been stated, size is less of an issue than working ability for many. That is fine, but I find it odd that "oversize, etc." breeders rarely if ever mention the working abilities of their large dogs. They are large for the sake of being large, and that is the first thing mentioned on their websites.

Perhaps size is mentioned first because that is what is always asked for by the buyer? Maybe a great deal of potential and current German shepherd owners don't place a high value on the dogs "working ability" - however you define it. Maybe they want a "big" German shepherd that is "good" around the house; will alert when something isn't normal; whose rear end isn't "messed up and dragging the floor"; that they can trust not to knock down Granny and bite her; and be good around cats and small children. Different people prioritize their wants differently. Different breeders select different segments of the population to sell to. Is it marketing? Perhaps. But don't try to convince me that SchH. breeders and showline breeders aren't doing the same in their marketing efforts - they flash ribbions and titles around but rarely mention health and temperament. When was the last time you saw a breeder of SchH. or showlines list SIBO and/or EPI as a common illness that runs through their lines?

[atravis]

I have never seen a 30" 140lb dog doing or even attempting SchH or police work.

I have.
Its called a Rottweiler. Cane Corso. Bouvier. Beauceron.
Provided 140lbs is a bit heavy, its not uncommon to see a healthy 120lb Rott doing the work. There are lots of larger dogs that can do the sport. Size ALONE does not prevent the animal from working.

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

So maybe the difference is that some are breeding for the consumer, and some are breeding for the breed?

[robinhuerta]

I can't comment on "other" breeder's and their program......but I would want to know health issues & such things....
As for "marketing ploys", ALL breeders (including the one this topic started about) will state to the general public...WHY their dogs/puppies should be considered for purchase.
The ribbons and medals are "proof" of specific accomplishments....why would anyone want to "degrade" them?
They are "goals" that breeders put before themselves, and are proud to have achieved them. I would never criticize any breeder or owner, for setting goals for themselves, and for working towards them.....
We have dogs that have done extremely well in the German Conformation Shows, have ScH titles, work as Service dogs, a SAR dog, and have been & currently are in Police K9 training teams......should I not be proud??!....is it a marketing ploy? SL dogs that CAN work...and continue to do so...
Health, Temperament & Form are important to many of us.
My overall comment & opinion is: This breed is SUPPOSED to be capable of many things...when you start to breed...against the grain of ANY of it's attributes...you have contributed to the down hill spiral within the breed.
All dogs will be different... size, color, coat, specific workabilities...etc......no one breeds the "perfect" dog. But it's our jobs to do right by the breed.
I won't criticize on a forum, other breeders for their breeding practices....I will only state if I agree with them or not....etc...etc......to each their own.
Just another comment......

[JKlatsky]

I have 2 Big dogs in my house. We used to raise Mastiffs. I know all about BIG dogs. Argos at 90lbs and Ike at 95lbs are both big shepherd at the very top or a little over standard in height. I love them and they work hard for me. I see where it is more diifcult for them to be as quick or agile as my other 70lb dogs, but I don't think less of them. And when they drop their weight and really pull they can stop a helper from moving or pull the unsuspecting from moving. So I can see the point about a heavier dog being more difficult to move and a lighter dog being more agile and fast. That's why if I ever bred my boys (which isn't my priority) I would go to a more moderate sized female to try to achieve a golden middle. I might get some pups that were big like Dad and that would be just fine. I'm sure they would be excellent dogs.

I think we're really talking about 2 different animals here though. We're not really talking about size. We're talking about dogs bred for size and advertised as such. A good dog can be oversized. But they usually look like this...


Not like this...


Now I'm not trying to necessarily make any comments on the health or temperament of these dogs. They both might have excellent hips and no genetic health problems. But to me, one clearly looks more athletic than the others. I have no problem with a big dog, and if as a pet owner you choose to keep your dog heavier, well that's your choice. But I have a problem with the main point of advertisement of these dogs being the size. When you see "vet verified at 120lbs! and 29" at the shoulder! as the first line of description about the dog, then I think you are clearly breeding for a niche market that has very little to do with the working German Shepherd. Shouldn't the goal of the conscientious breeder be to educate and perhaps if it's in the best interest of the client steer them towards another breed that better suits their needs? There's a reason people created the Shiloh and King Shepherds, which to me have more in common with Newfoundlands or Pyrenes than the GSD.

This same kind of attitude started into Mastiffs. Our Westminster BOB winner in the early 90s had a show weight of about 180-190lbs. Now you see all these dogs at 220-230lbs. And with that weight you have sloppy heads, hound ears, and a general movement away from the powerful type in order to just get size. Picking these kind of characteristics as the focus of a breeding program is to the detriment of any breed.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN

So maybe the difference is that some are breeding for the consumer, and some are breeding for the breed?

Here's an earth shattering idea - DO BOTH.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by robinhuerta

I can't comment on "other" breeder's and their program......but I would want to know health issues & such things....
As for "marketing ploys", ALL breeders (including the one this topic started about) will state to the general public...WHY their dogs/puppies should be considered for purchase.
The ribbons and medals are "proof" of specific accomplishments....why would anyone want to "degrade" them?
They are "goals" that breeders put before themselves, and are proud to have achieved them. I would never criticize any breeder or owner, for setting goals for themselves, and for working towards them.....
We have dogs that have done extremely well in the German Conformation Shows, have ScH titles, work as Service dogs, a SAR dog, and have been & currently are in Police K9 training teams......should I not be proud??!....is it a marketing ploy? SL dogs that CAN work...and continue to do so...
Health, Temperament & Form are important to many of us.
My overall comment & opinion is: This breed is SUPPOSED to be capable of many things...when you start to breed...against the grain of ANY of it's attributes...you have contributed to the down hill spiral within the breed.
All dogs will be different... size, color, coat, specific workabilities...etc......no one breeds the "perfect" dog. But it's our jobs to do right by the breed.
I won't criticize on a forum, other breeders for their breeding practices....I will only state if I agree with them or not....etc...etc......to each their own.
Just another comment......

To the average dog owner, all the titles and ribbons in the world don't mean squat. Only those owners who participate in the biased, flaw ridden, crooked, rigged shows and sports events value these things. Let's see what those breeders have contributed to bettering the breed - hmmmmm, I'm thinking, .... I'm sure there is something ... oh yeah, the dam mess we are in today.

[robinhuerta]

And the breeders that have done nothing, will do nothing, & continue to chastise those who have done something in the breed ...will have contributed even ...less.
If one isn't part of the solution...then one must be part of the problem.
Some of us want it all.....some don't......to each their own.
But average dog owners, should care about the dogs & breeders they are buying from.....it's called being educated in the breed itself.
If a buyer is looking for a specific "quality or qualities" for their purchase.....it would make perfect common sense to look for breeders that value those same qualities.
That would be recommended for ANY breed.
This is just fact....not fiction.

[Chris Wild]

With regard to oversized breeding, I think there is a definite difference between what different people are talking about with regard to oversized.

The majority of the criticism toward oversized breeding, as near as I can tell, are the breeders who are breeding giant GSDs. Dogs several inches over standard and well over 100lbs, who are often also quite a bit overweight judging by photos on websites, so as to allow for them to accurately be described as even bigger. And there are plenty of those such breeders out there. When getting to that size range, working ability and health most certainly can be compromised, though as much so by breeding focus (or lack thereof) than size itself. That many of these giants are carrying an extra 20-30lbs so they can be marketed as even bigger sure doesn't help matters any. But this is a very different situation than those who like bigger dogs in the sense of upper end of the standard or slightly oversized. This has been said many times in the thread, but it appears some people seem to think they're being lumped into the same group.

The biggest concern I, and probably many others, have with this sort of breeding is that when the main goal is one specific trait.. be it oversized, undersized, coat type, fad colors or anything else... what is lost in the process? Are more important things like temperament and health sacrificed? You bet often they are. This is certainly not always the case, but it is in many instances. Someone breeding for giants, marketing their pups toward people who want giants, may very well choose the 30" 140# beast with health and temperament issues over the middle standard sized dog with excellent health and temperament, because that is the focus of their breeding program. Not to say they may not be able to find a giant dog with excellent health and temperament, no doubt they could if they looked hard enough. But will they, especially if they have a giant nervebag with working plumbing in the back yard. Certainly this is not true of all of them, but it is true of enough that it makes people very leery when they encounter breeders pushing any one specific trait.

Then there is the issue of a shallow gene pool, which means that even if a breeder is trying to keep balance in other areas while producing a huge dog, can make it extremely difficult to do so. The majority of GSDs running around do fall within the standard with regard to things like size and color. Seeking out the genetics of dogs who do not severely limits the options available, perhaps forcing a breeder to choose between using a dog who doesn't fit their goals of size to maintain more important things like health and temperament and thus going against their stated goals and target customer base, or keeping with their stated goals and customer base and perhaps sacrificing more important things along the way. That is the concern, that the breeder will choose poorly.

This concern is magnified by the marketing. When someone markets their dogs talking first about size and putting emphasis there over all other things, it leaves the impression that is where they put emphasis when it comes to breeding decisions as well. And the more singular and specific traits they emphasize, especially combined with a much smaller gene pool in which to find those traits, can lead to a complete loss of balance in the breeding program and dogs.

Personally myself, I like a larger dog. I prefer dogs toward the upper end of the standard. A bit oversized wouldn't be a huge issue, but a giant is another matter and would be completely out of the question. I would not want one of those. At 26" and 95lbs I prefer Kaiser's size over Wulf's 25" and 85lbs, and certainly over a 24" 75lb male. Though I guess I have a double standard there because with females I prefer Della's 23" 65lbs over Raven's 24" 78lbs. But really, size is secondary. Health, temperament, nerve and working ability come first. We have a litter we bred where despite both parents being well within standard, most every dog in the litter is maturing out to be top end of the standard or a little bit over. I'm not pleased with that as I'd rather they be a bit smaller (I'd rather they had better pigment too) and the large size wasn't something we wanted. But I'm not overly displeased with it either because in terms of more important things we got pretty much exactly what we wanted. Size alone wouldn't deter me from doing the same or similar breeding. I'd just know better what to expect and warn new owners about with regard to size. Though ideally I will find a way to get similar results with regards to the important things, in a slightly smaller package next time around. Ultimately though, within reason, what sized package that comes in is of no more concern than what color it comes in. I have my preferred color too, yet neither of my girls even come close. Instead I have to settle for gazing at Wulfie from afar and cuddling him on the couch.

As far as the "old fashioned" claim, that one drives me nuts too and I just do not see any validation for it. Of course some of the GSDs of olden days were oversized, but it was not the overwhelming majority. Though I don't think that aside from the possible occasional mutant there were ever 30" 140# dogs running around herding sheep and serving police and military in late 19th and early 20th century Germany. Early on there were also dogs of all colors including white, blue, liver, brindle, piebald and merle, floppy earned dogs and perky eared dogs, short coats and long coats and curly coats and just about every other physical trait imaginable. Temperament was set first, then physical traits were weeded out to get the desired look of the breed as well as the size and structure deemed most widely utilitarian, which to me is a correct set of priorities. Now, it seems some are going backwards, focusing too much on looks and certainly not nearly enough on temperament.

But as far as "old fashioned" goes, there is a huge difference between it being common in some lines and it being the true "old fashioned" dog. The problem with the "old fashioned" marketing is that it says to people that these oversized (and very often long coated) dogs are the only true GSDs of old. That all GSDs back in the day were like this and that smaller, standard sized (and even standard coated) dogs are some new fangled idea that is not true to the breed's history. That is completely incorrect. There were just as many smaller dogs in the old days as big ones, with most actually falling in the middle. With the defense I've seen for the "old fashioned" marketing saying that it isn't a lie because there were big dogs back then, the same would hold true for anything else. Someone breeding undersized dogs or standard sized dogs would be no less accurate to describe their dogs as "old fashioned". Heck, with that line of thinking, if all it takes is being able to point back to a few examples of such in the early days of the breed to justify it, someone breeding merle flop eared curly coated dogs might get away with marketing their dogs as "old fashioned". I don't dispute that there have always been big dogs in the breed. I don't even dispute that for some specific forms of service a larger dog (though not a giant) may be more useful. I dispute the implication with the "old fashioned" marketing that this was the norm, and universally seen and desired amongst the old dogs and smaller dogs are some new craze.