Old fashioned? REALLY???

[robinhuerta]

Well...as a breeder myself...I've already stated my "opinion" in regards to the topic.
The GSD breed originated for a purpose. The "founder" created a standard/blueprint for which he "believed" the dog should adhere to. As years have passed, the "interpretation" of those views & ideas have been compromised....
The breed is supposed to be "tested" and judged as being breed worthy.
I am not just refering to the sport of Schutzhund...I also refer to the Police K9s, SAR, Service Dogs, Herding and any other organization that requires dogs of excellent temperament and sound bodies.
All breeders "believe" that their dogs are "worthy"...I would assume, that is why they choose to breed them. But I believe that as a "breeder" we must actually be able to have our dogs "tested" worthy, by actually having dogs that can & DO perform in the jobs & venues that this breed participates in....before we choose to breed them.... (perhaps thats just my own requirement).
People like to imagine that "their" dogs fit the description of what the GSD is supposed to be....and I'm sure that many do....after all, we love them and they are part of our family. All GSD dogs should be sound enough mentally & physically that they would be a perfect breed for companion life..(that should be a given, not an exception)....but they are supposed to be capable of being more......that is the point that gets lost. WL or SL...makes no difference.
my personal feelings....nothing more.

[robinhuerta]

sorry for the typo's...did not hit "spell-check" before posting.....I must be tired, besides being sick.

[RubyTuesday]

Lies, the obsession with size is overwhelmingly on the part of those who oppose over sized GS but are incapable of doing so without piling on 'misrepresentations' about health, soundness, longevity, temperament, ability etc.

I like them large, specifically tall & lean. I also like em coated & sable but my little Djibouiti is a B&T stock coat. IF it was difficult to acquire an over sized GS with the temperament, health, personality & longevity I want, I'd compromise on size much as I 'compromised' on coat & color to take the pup both the breeder & I felt was the best match to my household. In my early correspondence with Djibouti's breeder I gave her a list of the temperament, personality & appearance traits that were most important to me. Temperament was listed 1st, followed by personality, with appearance characteristics listed last b/c I wanted to be clear which qualities were most important to me. I passed on a very large, gorgeous coatie b/c the breeder felt he'd be a poor fit in my household. Given that I'm not obsessed about size, I don't insist that others should adopt my preferences. I will applaud any sound, stable, personable, healthy, athletic GS regardless of size & a thumbs up to those breeders consistently producing such dogs.

Lies, you like 'em small. Reading that, I'm not compelled to go off on a RANT trying to convince you how WRONG that is & why larger is better if you'd only just see the wisdom of *my* way. I'm not going to pull things out of my *ahem*hat to 'prove' smaller GS are structurally incorrect, undesirable, incapable of meaningful performance & largely coveted by wusses incapable of handling a 'real'(ie behemoth) GS. IF I attempted such logical twists, it would be bunk, as it's bunk when people resort to such tactics to deny the worth of larger GS.

Those who work their dogs aren't obsessed with size, although they might prefer a size that is better suited to particular tasks, be that small, medium or large. IMO, it's sport enthusiasts(esp SchH) who are obsessed with size & seemed determined to convince all of us what we oughta like, seek, breed.

Originally Posted by Onyx'Girl
My WL pup is getting big and I see my SchH helper not liking that so much! He is strong and packs a punch, the mals are welcomed by the helper so his body doesn't break. My pup is agile and fast, but he can stop growing now.

I wonder how much of the SchH opposition is rooted in this...Lies stated earlier that a 55" GS shook her like a ragdoll. A dog twice that size or more could prove dangerous to her.

Originally Posted by robinhuerta
but they are supposed to be capable of being more......that is the point that gets lost.

The point that seems to get lost(ignored?) is that many over sized GS are indeed capable of more & are delivering more. (I hope you're feeling better soon)

[Samba]

But, I know relatively large dogs who are quite successful at sport and are admired and even make a good go at the BSP. My dog's grand sire was recommended to improve size and was a big boy going sorta slow around the BSP blinds! I have not noted them to be discriminated against. If it can work and is a clear headed, well balanced dog I know the working enthusiast won't care if it is a bit big, has one nut and a googlie eye! They would work with it and train with it but hopefully not breed it. Wouldn't be breedworthy in the places that have a system to check for basic characteristics.

To point at sport people and say they don't like such and such just doesn't seem to me to be a reason to justify this type of breeding?? There has to be something beyond someone had their own personal vision to take a different track with the breed and sport people don't like them anyway??

[crs996]

As has been stated, size is less of an issue than working ability for many. That is fine, but I find it odd that "oversize, etc." breeders rarely if ever mention the working abilities of their large dogs. They are large for the sake of being large, and that is the first thing mentioned on their websites.

[mjbgsd]

To me, if a breeder can't prove that their dogs can work in some way, they shouldn't be breeding.

As has been stated, size is less of an issue than working ability for many. That is fine, but I find it odd that "oversize, etc." breeders rarely if ever mention the working abilities of their large dogs. They are large for the sake of being large, and that is the first thing mentioned on their websites.

I agree, I find it odd too. People have a weird fascination with huge dogs. My breeder for Akbar did SAR for many years and has a son in SAR right now, who is the youngest SAR member, and she's said things before that bigger is not better when it comes to SAR. Picking a 120lb dog up is not possible. She had to hike all day up and down turrain and a dog of great size is not cut out for that work. There's a reason SAR picks smaller sized dogs.

[Dainerra]

I've read this whole thread and what I'm seeing is that the 2 sides are talking about different things.

Doc and the others in favor of "old-fashioned" or over-sized dogs are talking mainly about dogs that are out of standard, but only a little. Dogs that many people on the other side agree aren't a problem.

The "anti-big" side is talking out against breeders who are selling dogs that are over 30" tall, 100+ lbs (some sites have them at 140!!). Dogs that even the "old-fashioned" fans say are too big.

So why are you even arguing unless it's for the sake of arguing? It seems that both sides are so entrenched they don't see that they are against the same thing. And that is breeders whose only goal is to breed a BIG dog because, in America, people believe that bigger is better.

Just last week, a guy was wanting to breed Freya with his male at home which, he claims, is 180 lbs!

[Doc]

How much is that doggie in the window, the one with the waggity tail. I think one key point that is never discussed about the German shepherd dog in this country is the fact that after WWII, the greatest demand for German shepherds were by home owners and service folks who saw the German shepherd either on TV (as mentioned before) or those who saw them working in the war. The demand did not come from show groups or SchH. people. Just another major evolutionary mildstone in the history of this breed. Size wasn't an issue back then.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

Lies, you like 'em small.

Sorry I had to chuckle a bit. You seem to know how I think despite having never met me or my dogs. I actually love males on the large size, heavier boned and big heads, the bigger and blockier the better. But I pick a dog based on a dozen things other than size. Neither of my dogs were ones that I personally chose, and neither of them embody my ideal "look" of what I would want in my perfect GSD. I've always wanted a larger, dark male with a big head, fuller coat and heavy bone. What was I given? A tiny female with a light, tight coat. The next time around, I was set on a male and ended up with the smallest male in the litter. That litter was chosen based on what I know and like about the dam (who is large) and the opinions of people I trust about the sire (never met him, do not know his size or care).

I wonder how much of the SchH opposition is rooted in this...Lies stated earlier that a 55" GS shook her like a ragdoll. A dog twice that size or more could prove dangerous to her.

This was not in the context of SchH. The owner of the dog is a state trooper and has never competed in SchH. The dog is a police dog and is not trained in SchH. He has no trouble making his paycheck with a smaller female dog. I am not a helper so I can't comment on a dog twice her size, that's just a fantasy scenario. Our helpers do work dogs nearly twice her size and there's not really any comparison, since again, size is one of the absolute last things that matters as far as how a dog gets worked. The balance of drives, the body language, the barking, the grip....those things matter. Your argument should be reversed. I'd wager that LEOs might prefer a more medium sized GS over a large one (and for the gazillionth time, by large I mean ~27-28", 80-100lbs) whereas for SchH it's not really going to matter.

I have never seen a 30" 140lb dog doing or even attempting SchH or police work.

[LaRen616]

The bigger the GSD the better the protection. Jk. But I hear "Your dog is huge", "That is the longest dog I have ever seen", "I wouldn't dream of messing with you with him around" and of course my favorite "Holy Crap" My dog makes me feel very very safe and where I live that is a very important thing to me. Also my dog is VERY fast and energetic and does not have an ounce of fat. No small GSD with slanted back here.