Old fashioned? REALLY???

[RubyTuesday]

I’ve never said the smaller GS have less presence. Nor do I think they lack mental strength, will & determination. I prefer my big guys, (tall & lean), but I don’t scorn & dislike the dogs outside my preferences. Larger, heavier, well conditioned athletes will generally have more raw power than those who are considerably smaller, even when the smaller athletes are equally fit & conditioned. This applies to canine athletes as well as human.

The additional size & power can be invaluable for those needing brace/balance & wheelchair assistance dogs. Khawk has previously posted about this. It’s an area she brings years of expertise to. Trainers who have worked/trained military & LE dogs have also stated that larger dogs are preferred for some jobs while other tasks are better performed by smaller dogs.

Someone I once knew, imported several dogs from East Germany after the wall came down. They were working dogs (employed by the military, I think) & were b/w 28-29”. On another GS board an immigrant from East Germany confirmed that this was not uncommon, & that working ability not size, was the most important criterion.

SchH, sporting & competition enthusiasts seem to universally deplore the over sized GS. Those actually working dogs want the best dog for the job & many are open enough, honest enough to acknowledge that best dog can be an over sized GS.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

Larger, heavier, well conditioned athletes will generally have more raw power than those who are considerably smaller, even when the smaller athletes are equally fit & conditioned. This applies to canine athletes as well as human.

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what "raw power" means, how it is measured, and why it is important. It seems that a good street dog would need to be fast on a chase, thorough in building searches, be able to scale walls and fences and squeeze through holes in pursuit. A 70lb GSD hits and grips with plenty of power, no need to add 60lb only for the sake of more force when the larger dog becomes a hindrance in other aspects of work. I wore a sleeve for a 55lb police K9 and the dog shook me like a ragdoll, and I had the advantage of protection and knowing how the dog was going to be sent and what would happen. Again, I'm not talking about dogs that are a few inches and ten pounds over, but right this moment I'm looking at breeding dogs advertised as 127, 137, "150+" pounds and "dogs exceeding 30"". And these are the dogs most suited to do the work of the breed?

Power is only one aspect, what about agility? I disagree with the comment about athletes. As a competitive gymnast it's absolutely not true that a 300lb linebacker has an athletic advantage when it comes to agility.

Since I've never seen anything but a GSD at work doing police work, I have nothing to compare, but at least on the SchH field when watching the Rottweilers, mastiffs, and Boerboels train, they looked very heavy and slow and those were the comments I heard from the trainers. Other than a bone crushing grip, the rest was pretty much a snore. Claudia Romard's jack russell worked with more intensity.

[Castlemaid]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

Someone I once knew, imported several dogs from East Germany after the wall came down. They were working dogs (employed by the military, I think) & were b/w 28-29”. On another GS board an immigrant from East Germany confirmed that this was not uncommon, & that working ability not size, was the most important criterion.

SchH, sporting & competition enthusiasts seem to universally deplore the over sized GS. Those actually working dogs want the best dog for the job & many are open enough, honest enough to acknowledge that best dog can be an over sized GS.

You brought out a key point here, these dogs were being bred for working ability first and foremost, size (as in height) taking a second level importance.

Part of the issues in this discussion about "old fashioned" GSDs, is breeder breeding for size, with the argument that their dogs are retaining working ability in the true spirit of the GSD, without selecting and testing their breeding stock for working ability. Just as a smaller size is no guarantee that a dog can work, and a larger size does not automatically mean a dog CAN'T work. But again, the size is incidental, the focus being on working ability, not on breeding solely for over-the standard in order to meet a market demand.

[Lin]

I also disagree with the comment about brace/balance and wheelchair assistance dogs. I use my service dog for a brace and balance and like I mentioned earlier a larger size would be a hindrance. I don't know anyone with a mobility assistance dog larger than 26". I'm sure there are some out there, but its not whats best fitted. And actually my experience with service dog training organizations I see more medium sized dogs than large dogs when it comes to wheelchair assistance.

[Samba]

An individual over size dog is not a problem. I know a couple of nice dogs who work like mad with great drives who are around 100 lbs. I haven't heard their handler or those breeding to them hoping to preserve the size though. Certainly, they desire the working abilities. So an individual dog who is large can work but I have never known of pursuing the preservation of the oversize for size sakes.

[Xeph]

I use my service dog for a brace and balance and like I mentioned earlier a larger size would be a hindrance. I don't know anyone with a mobility assistance dog larger than 26".

You do now Strauss is 27"

My personal preference for my mobility dogs is 25-27" Anything taller is too tall for me. I'm hoping my new puppy will turn out a bit tall for a bitch as I am concerned about her being too small.

[RubyTuesday]

Lin, there are advantages to a smaller size exactly as there are to a larger size. While you might disagree, it is a fact that Khawk works with & prefers oversized GS for wheelchair assistance. She also assists with training & placing GS (many over sized) as assistance dogs. She too speaks from actual experience, coupled with decades of studying, breeding, & working GS, many of which are over sized.

Castlemaids, regardless of what they are being bred for, the important point is that over sized GS can & do work. It's frequently maintained that they don't & even that they can't. IF the error of that is pointed out, suddenly the rules/arguments shift. The breeder originally linked acknowledges breeding to produce exemplary pets. She's also produced outstanding working GS. As I noted earlier, a realistic assessment of many WL breeders shows that they too cater largely to the pet or sport market. They simply dress it up.

Lies, where did I state that larger athletes have every athletic advantage? Where did I infer that much larger athletes are as agile? Where raw power is needed, a fit & conditioned athlete of considerably greater size will have an advantage. IF a 55' dog was able to shake you like a ragdoll, a dog twice that size might have caused you actual, even serious injuries.

Samba, I prefer over sized GS for several reasons but I don't breed. However there are breeders that select for size b/c it is useful in the endeavors in which they work their dogs. Others want a smaller GS for sport, competition & work which is fine but I'm glad the over sized breeders follow their vision of the working & companion GS rather than the dictates of SchH enthusiasts.

[Samba]

I have a couple of old fashioned dogs myself. They are healthy and have very straight backs. They have a lot of bone and are of some substance. They are awesome with the very young and the very old. They seem to have an innate sensitivity to the infirm. 'They will lay at your feet or accompany you on any trip. They will play if a family member wants a bit of a game. They are not quick to bite, but would valiantly stand up to a threat to home and family.

I will not tell them of their "sport" (which I don't think is a thing) ancestry for fear they will abandon these traits. The dogs I see aren't needing supplementation by yet another line because of lost valuable GSD temperament and characteristics. Sure wish I could see these sporty dogs some day who fail to be like a good ol' GSD. I am sure there are some who have fallen off the breeding wagon but I can't see that it is enough to justify the supplementation of the breed with other types.

I am glad there are people who like an oversize GSDs as some will be produced due to the genetics in the breed even when not intended. I certainly don't see working people rejecting them due to size if they work. On the contrary actually.

[Doc]

Jackie, go sit in the corner with your tye dyed tee on. Wishing for a female that is larger than the standard!?? Blasphemy, plain out blasphemy! You know a tall gal can't perform as brace balance dog - just read the threads! roflmao

[Doc]

Are there any breeders adding to this thread or am I the only one dumb enough to stay here?