Old fashioned? REALLY??? - Page 15

Baby Byron · 03-16-2010, 11:11 AM

I second KayElle and LaRen616. Somehow the most important point of all is falling through the cracks here: we all love GSDs. Some of us love the big guys and it's completely fine because some of us don't have a shred of interest in showing (and hence needing to comply to standard).
I have my breeder and love her to pieces but will, without doubt, contact Doc in the future.
Like KayElle said, y'all should watch my babies run. They are anything but fat or lazy. And, boy, are they agile. My Sidney was 135 lbs and outran huskies all the time. And nobody have or had health issues (except for Arrow's skin allergies).
Guys, we love GSDs. That's all.
Cheers,
Ana

**Castlemaid** · 03-16-2010, 11:13 AM

Doc, I never said a single negative things about your dogs. I have stated what I believe a breeder should try and strive for in a breeding program, but I challenge you to go over my past posts from this thread and others, and find attacks and criticism from me aimed at the lines or pictures or specifics about your dogs that you have posted. It is hard sometimes to have a generalized discussion without people taking everything personally.

So your insinuations are misplaced. I may disagree on your breeding philosophy, but I am sure your dogs are exactly what you say they are, and no arguements from me on that point.

KayElle · 03-16-2010, 11:15 AM

Bravo!!!!

Liesje · 03-16-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Byron

I second KayElle and LaRen616. Somehow the most important point of all is falling through the cracks here: we all love GSDs. Some of us love the big guys and it's completely fine because some of us don't have a shred of interest in showing (and hence needing to comply to standard).
I have my breeder and love her to pieces but will, without doubt, contact Doc in the future.
Like KayElle said, y'all should watch my babies run. They are anything but fat or lazy. And, boy, are they agile. My Sidney was 135 lbs and outran huskies all the time. And nobody have or had health issues (except for Arrow's skin allergies).
Guys, we love GSDs. That's all.
Cheers,
Ana

This is beside the point. It is the "breeding" forum and someone raised the question about whether or not dogs being advertised as "old fashioned" really do represent the GSDs of old. What would be the point of just having one forum where we all sing Kumbaya? To me that is selling our dogs and our breed short. It is possible to have a discussion about our breed without getting all emotional about it. Maybe you are OK with people misrepresenting the breed and their dogs but I'm not. If such discussions upset you then maybe avoid this part of the forum?

KayElle · 03-16-2010, 11:28 AM

Lies--
You stated that she "misrepresented" the breed. That is your opinion. As Doc has pointed out correctly, the early gsds were straight backed and several of the foundation stock were "oversized" by today's standard. I believe there is room for interpretation here and that NOONE is absolutely right or wrong. I hope this comment is in the spirit of debate that you suggested; if not, since we are all soliciting opinions here, do you suggest several of us "quit" (as you stated) this forum? I certainly hope not!

Mrs.K · 03-16-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liesje

This is beside the point. It is the "breeding" forum and someone raised the question about whether or not dogs being advertised as "old fashioned" really do represent the GSDs of old. What would be the point of just having one forum where we all sing Kumbaya? To me that is selling our dogs and our breed short. It is possible to have a discussion about our breed without getting all emotional about it. Maybe you are OK with people misrepresenting the breed and their dogs but I'm not. If such discussions upset you then maybe avoid this part of the forum?

Thank you.

Baby Byron · 03-16-2010, 11:36 AM

Lies,

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not upset or emotional. Just trying to expose the Running With The Big Guys point of view. A discussion only exists when there are two talking. Meaning if everybody says "amen" to the topic starter then there's no discussion just corroboration. Its' OK to disagree. I'd just prefer that folks would stick to disagreeing without personal attacks which, and you have to agree with me, always take place when a new thread on "big size" or "long coats" or "old fashioned" comes along. That's all. Truth is, we all come from different schools of thought here and we all know that. And that's fine. Let's just remember to keep it civil. In the end it boils down to the fact that, for example, I've had large long coats for 25+ years and that's all I'm ever going to get and you have standard dogs and that's all you're going to get. And it's perfectly fine with me. Again, I'm not upset, just defending my turf but respecting yours (by yours I mean everyone that does not partake of my particular view).
Cheers,
Ana

Liesje · 03-16-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KayElle

Lies--
You stated that she "misrepresented" the breed. That is your opinion. As Doc has pointed out correctly, the early gsds were straight backed and several of the foundation stock were "oversized" by today's standard. I believe there is room for interpretation here and that NOONE is absolutely right or wrong. I hope this comment is in the spirit of debate that you suggested; if not, since we are all soliciting opinions here, do you suggest several of us "quit" (as you stated) this forum? I certainly hope not!

My comment about misrepresentation was not directed at Doc or his dogs and does not really have to due with size. I believe form follows function. Hard working dogs are going to be smaller and thinner, pets can get away with being larger and heavier. Neither is right or wrong, it just is what it is.

AbbyK9 · 03-16-2010, 12:07 PM

Max von Stephanitz himself says that dogs and bitches should be "about 24" at the withers" with "2" to go either way", meaning two inches larger or smaller than that. So Von Stephanitz envisioned his "ideal" dog to be between about 22" and about 26" in height - a dog that's 27" wouldn't have been considered "outside the standard" as the original standard only says "about" that size, not "exactly" that size.

However, those 27" inch males are a far cry from what these breeders of (supposed) "old-fashioned" German Shepherds are producing. They're not breeding dogs that come out to be an inch or two above the standard - like the ones Doc is using as his example above - but breeding dogs that are 30" and taller, plus very heavy in weight as well. And I don't mean "heavy boned", although many of them are, but just plain heavy.

On the majority of "old-fashioned" German Shepherd breeders' sites that I've seen, they tout the height of their dog (above 30") as well as the weight of their dogs - and many, if not most, of these dogs are grossly overweight. When you can't see a tuck-up behind the rib cage, and have to guess where the dog's ribcage ends and his midsection begins, you have a problem. And you see a lot of those dogs with just rolls of neck fat and wobbly bellies, along with the breeder's description of how they are "large-boned and muscular, but not fat." Uh ... really? I don't think so.

IMHO I also don't believe that Doc's view of early German Shepherds necessarily holds water. While it's true that some breeders were breeding larger dogs, most of those were within Von Stephanitz's standard - a dog that is 27" still falls close to his written standard, and there's no reason why such a dog, if he is otherwise correct for the breed, wouldn't be chosen as a Sieger dog.

Doc also notes that when some breeders began breeding larger dogs, Von Stephanitz put a stop to that by choosing a relatively small (24") male as Sieger so more people would be encouraged to breed to him. That speaks volumes to Von Stephanitz's goals, IMHO - he was aware that people were oversizing and tried to put a stop to it to fit with the breed vision that he had created when he created the breed.

IMHO if the breed's founder is saying, "This is WRONG and we need to stop oversizing", maybe it's time to listen.

I think, historically speaking, the German Shepherd was never intended to be a large dog, and while some dogs were on the larger end of the standard, the majority still were not - and even those larger dogs were nowhere near the "old fashioned" German Shepherds that these breeders are producing now, where the dogs resemble more a Newfoundland than a Shepherd in size.

Doc · 03-16-2010, 12:37 PM

I'm a breeder and proud of what I produce. I feel my dogs represent what a German shepherd should be. If you have no personal knowledge of or experience with my dogs, then your acquisitions about them may, or mostly likely, be entirely off-base.

To make such statements in a public forum has to be defended. And since I have spent my life with these dogs I would say I know a lot more about them than anyone who has made their opinion known in here. Am I upset? Not really - but to say my dogs look like giant welsh corgies is a little disturbing and insulting; but I have come to expect such verbage from certain people in here.

As far as form and function, that can apply to any size German shepherd. To associate poor function because of size only means you have not experienced or seen a properly bred oversized German shepherd. It all goes back to genetics - a major tenet of the German shepherd's foundation and one that is not clearly understood by many German shepherd owners. If you want to capture what the german shepherd is all about genetically, read some of the interviews with Manfred Heyne. His understanding of the GSD is spot on. It's too bad he is no longer with us to share his wisdom and knowledge of this breed.

03-16-2010, 11:11 AM	#141 (permalink)
Baby Byron Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: IL Posts: 291	I second KayElle and LaRen616. Somehow the most important point of all is falling through the cracks here: we all love GSDs. Some of us love the big guys and it's completely fine because some of us don't have a shred of interest in showing (and hence needing to comply to standard). I have my breeder and love her to pieces but will, without doubt, contact Doc in the future. Like KayElle said, y'all should watch my babies run. They are anything but fat or lazy. And, boy, are they agile. My Sidney was 135 lbs and outran huskies all the time. And nobody have or had health issues (except for Arrow's skin allergies). Guys, we love GSDs. That's all. Cheers, Ana __________________ Mom to Logan and Dominick (5yo and 3yo human puppies) Gus (coat black and red GSD; DOB 2/04/2008), Molly (coat black and red GSD; DOB 9/21/2008),Tommie Girl (Samoyed/Husky mixDOB; 9/20/1996).Sidney (male coat solid black GSD; RIP) we miss you buddy!

03-16-2010, 11:13 AM	#142 (permalink)
Castlemaid Moderator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Northern British Columbia Posts: 8,505	Doc, I never said a single negative things about your dogs. I have stated what I believe a breeder should try and strive for in a breeding program, but I challenge you to go over my past posts from this thread and others, and find attacks and criticism from me aimed at the lines or pictures or specifics about your dogs that you have posted. It is hard sometimes to have a generalized discussion without people taking everything personally. So your insinuations are misplaced. I may disagree on your breeding philosophy, but I am sure your dogs are exactly what you say they are, and no arguements from me on that point. __________________ Lucia Keeta BH, OB1, TR1, AD (HOT) Rottweiler/Hairy Dog mix?? Shelter rescue Gryffon Vom Wildhaus BH, OFA Good (HOT) "Bites Through the Sleeve" Cuddlebug, b: Mar 2009

03-16-2010, 11:15 AM	#143 (permalink)
KayElle Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 86	Bravo!!!! __________________ KayElle Mom of Cheney (LHGSD) Sable (plush GSD)

03-16-2010, 11:28 AM	#145 (permalink)
KayElle Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 86	Lies-- You stated that she "misrepresented" the breed. That is your opinion. As Doc has pointed out correctly, the early gsds were straight backed and several of the foundation stock were "oversized" by today's standard. I believe there is room for interpretation here and that NOONE is absolutely right or wrong. I hope this comment is in the spirit of debate that you suggested; if not, since we are all soliciting opinions here, do you suggest several of us "quit" (as you stated) this forum? I certainly hope not! __________________ KayElle Mom of Cheney (LHGSD) Sable (plush GSD)

03-16-2010, 11:36 AM	#147 (permalink)
Baby Byron Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: IL Posts: 291	Lies, Please don't get me wrong. I'm not upset or emotional. Just trying to expose the Running With The Big Guys point of view. A discussion only exists when there are two talking. Meaning if everybody says "amen" to the topic starter then there's no discussion just corroboration. Its' OK to disagree. I'd just prefer that folks would stick to disagreeing without personal attacks which, and you have to agree with me, always take place when a new thread on "big size" or "long coats" or "old fashioned" comes along. That's all. Truth is, we all come from different schools of thought here and we all know that. And that's fine. Let's just remember to keep it civil. In the end it boils down to the fact that, for example, I've had large long coats for 25+ years and that's all I'm ever going to get and you have standard dogs and that's all you're going to get. And it's perfectly fine with me. Again, I'm not upset, just defending my turf but respecting yours (by yours I mean everyone that does not partake of my particular view). Cheers, Ana __________________ Mom to Logan and Dominick (5yo and 3yo human puppies) Gus (coat black and red GSD; DOB 2/04/2008), Molly (coat black and red GSD; DOB 9/21/2008),Tommie Girl (Samoyed/Husky mixDOB; 9/20/1996).Sidney (male coat solid black GSD; RIP) we miss you buddy!

03-16-2010, 12:07 PM	#149 (permalink)
AbbyK9 Crowned Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: North Country, NY Posts: 12,430	Max von Stephanitz himself says that dogs and bitches should be "about 24" at the withers" with "2" to go either way", meaning two inches larger or smaller than that. So Von Stephanitz envisioned his "ideal" dog to be between about 22" and about 26" in height - a dog that's 27" wouldn't have been considered "outside the standard" as the original standard only says "about" that size, not "exactly" that size. However, those 27" inch males are a far cry from what these breeders of (supposed) "old-fashioned" German Shepherds are producing. They're not breeding dogs that come out to be an inch or two above the standard - like the ones Doc is using as his example above - but breeding dogs that are 30" and taller, plus very heavy in weight as well. And I don't mean "heavy boned", although many of them are, but just plain heavy. On the majority of "old-fashioned" German Shepherd breeders' sites that I've seen, they tout the height of their dog (above 30") as well as the weight of their dogs - and many, if not most, of these dogs are grossly overweight. When you can't see a tuck-up behind the rib cage, and have to guess where the dog's ribcage ends and his midsection begins, you have a problem. And you see a lot of those dogs with just rolls of neck fat and wobbly bellies, along with the breeder's description of how they are "large-boned and muscular, but not fat." Uh ... really? I don't think so. IMHO I also don't believe that Doc's view of early German Shepherds necessarily holds water. While it's true that some breeders were breeding larger dogs, most of those were within Von Stephanitz's standard - a dog that is 27" still falls close to his written standard, and there's no reason why such a dog, if he is otherwise correct for the breed, wouldn't be chosen as a Sieger dog. Doc also notes that when some breeders began breeding larger dogs, Von Stephanitz put a stop to that by choosing a relatively small (24") male as Sieger so more people would be encouraged to breed to him. That speaks volumes to Von Stephanitz's goals, IMHO - he was aware that people were oversizing and tried to put a stop to it to fit with the breed vision that he had created when he created the breed. IMHO if the breed's founder is saying, "This is WRONG and we need to stop oversizing", maybe it's time to listen. I think, historically speaking, the German Shepherd was never intended to be a large dog, and while some dogs were on the larger end of the standard, the majority still were not - and even those larger dogs were nowhere near the "old fashioned" German Shepherds that these breeders are producing now, where the dogs resemble more a Newfoundland than a Shepherd in size. __________________ Malinois Ronja - fastest K-9 in VT =^^= Finn, Ratchet & Ollie Blog - Facebook - Store

03-16-2010, 12:37 PM	#150 (permalink)
Doc Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,570	I'm a breeder and proud of what I produce. I feel my dogs represent what a German shepherd should be. If you have no personal knowledge of or experience with my dogs, then your acquisitions about them may, or mostly likely, be entirely off-base. To make such statements in a public forum has to be defended. And since I have spent my life with these dogs I would say I know a lot more about them than anyone who has made their opinion known in here. Am I upset? Not really - but to say my dogs look like giant welsh corgies is a little disturbing and insulting; but I have come to expect such verbage from certain people in here. As far as form and function, that can apply to any size German shepherd. To associate poor function because of size only means you have not experienced or seen a properly bred oversized German shepherd. It all goes back to genetics - a major tenet of the German shepherd's foundation and one that is not clearly understood by many German shepherd owners. If you want to capture what the german shepherd is all about genetically, read some of the interviews with Manfred Heyne. His understanding of the GSD is spot on. It's too bad he is no longer with us to share his wisdom and knowledge of this breed.

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