Old fashioned? REALLY???

[Doc]

Originally Posted by AbbyK9

The thing that really bothers me about this thread is that someone early on in the thread said that people remember Strongheart and Rin-Tin-Tin, and that's the type of dog they want to buy. I don't understand this as an explanation because neither Strongheart nor the original Rin-Tin-Tin look anything at all like these dogs that are being advertised as "old-fashioned" German Shepherds.

Below are two photos. The one on the left is Strongheart, and one on the right is the original Rin-Tin-Tin. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see oversized, hulking behemoths of dogs when I look at Rinty and Strongheart.

As far as the breed standard goes ... people like to use the excuse that the modern breed standard was written much later and breeders *should* be breeding to what Max von Stephanitz envisioned. Unfortunately, it seems like those people generally have NO IDEA what Max von Stephanitz envisioned. Especially if they say that and breed oversized dogs. Because Captain Max was quite clear what he wanted -

If you're breeding neither to the standard nor to what the breed's founder envisioned, exactly what are you breeding? Because IMHO it's not a German Shepherd.

As I stated earlier, I define "old-fashion" German shepherds as pre- Klodo v Boxberg. With this in mind, let's look at the historical trends in size of the German shepherd. From my historical notes - "As for size, Stephanitz himself chose, at the very least, 2 Siegers of at least 27 inches in height between 1910 and 1920 and uses Jung Tell of the Kriminalpolizei (Champion of Holland in 1913), another large dog, in a photograph as an example of a correct dog. The Boll lines, the Kriminalpolizei, the Secretainerie lines were all tall, large dogs, well known and well regarded in their time. In the early twenties, with dogs like Norse of the Kriminalpolizei (29 inches) being so heavily used, (180 litters were recorded from Norse alone) Stephanitz, who had choosen taller, larger dogs in the past, deliberately chose Klodo of Boxberg, a small (24 inches) but very correct dog as Sieger in 1925, knowing people would turn to Klodo to breed and that would inevitably bring the dogs back to the middle ground. Choosing the Klodo son von Haus Schutting in 1929 to follow merely soldified that modification. Stephanitz knew that he could depend upon people breeding heavily to whatever dog he chose as Sieger, and he was right, they did, but their is no doubt that historically, the early breeders of the German shepherd preferred dogs of larger size to those of smaller stature. Early American breeders were no different, preferring dogs of larger size over those of smaller stature.

To say the German shepherd dog was never a large dog is historically wrong.

[LaRen616]

I recently went to a dog show and I saw a very small female GSD and I kid you not I thought she was a puppy 6-7 months old. She was 2 1/2! She was so small I could not believe it. My GSD, my friends GSD and my Co Workers GSD are all about the same size and around the same weight. Mine is 85-88 pounds, friend's is 95 pounds and my co worker's female is about 80 pounds. They are all very tall, not fat at all. No slanted legs and all of them are very athletic. Very good looking dogs in my opinion

[Mrs.K]

Doc, there is nothing that can convince me to like those oversized, allmost dane faced, Shepherd.

In my book it is wrong. I respect your opinion but at the same time I highly disagree with you and the reasons of breeding way to large, oversized and heavy German Shepherds.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by LaRen616

I recently went to a dog show and I saw a very small female GSD and I kid you not I thought she was a puppy 6-7 months old. She was 2 1/2! She was so small I could not believe it. My GSD, my friends GSD and my Co Workers GSD are all about the same size and around the same weight. Mine is 85-88 pounds, friend's is 95 pounds and my co worker's female is about 80 pounds. They are all very tall, not fat at all. No slanted legs and all of them are very athletic. Very good looking dogs in my opinion

This is my bitch, she is six years old, weighs 50 lbs and is lean and athletic. She actually has a deeper, more developed chest than my male who is 25lbs heavier (show line, still maturing). If you look at her from the front, her chest is lower and if you look at her from the top, her chest is wider. She has very little angulation relative to today's show fads, but moves very balanced, no looseness, firm back. I was at a dog show this weekend showing my male and since I had her along, I entered her as well.




I have no problem with the occasional dog having a much larger frame, or breeding an oversized dog because it carries even more important characteristics (temperament, drives, health, etc), but to me there's a difference between a dog with an oversized frame and a dog that is simply overweight and not in athletic condition.

[Doc]

I have no idea of the dog you speak of Mrs. K. The ones I breed look like German shepherds not Great Danes, perhaps over-sized in Germany takes on a different look?



One of my gals at 7 months.


And another one of gals at 2 years and 90 pounds.

[Samba]

My females have all fallen in the upper 50 go lower 60 lbs for weight. I had one oversize male in the 90s but the others all weighed in the 80s. I have always thought of them as a medium sized breed in general. Of course, there are nice dogs who are outlyers occasionally.

[LaRen616]

I dont think I have ever seen a heavy GSD? Maybe I have and dont remember but my GSD is very lean, just very tall

[Baby Byron]

Here are my babies:

Gus at 110 lbs (at the picnic table with the humans) and Molly when she was 9 mo ~90 lbs


Another shot of Gus and Molly when she was 8 weeks


Don't think they look like Danes and they are all very athletic, muscular, agile, active dogs.
I guess we just need to agree to disagree. It's OK to have 90-100 lbs GSDs and have them healthy. All of mine have been at least that size, the ones that passed lived long healthy lives. All have been wonderful, mentally sound dogs. No issues at all. It's been 25-30 years of amazing GSD joy here.

Hugs to all,
Ana

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by LaRen616

I dont think I have ever seen a heavy GSD? Maybe I have and dont remember but my GSD is very lean, just very tall

You can't always tell just from a picture. If you go to an SV show you might see dogs that are too heavy or not conditioned. They are exhausted before their class is finished and not just panting but their chests make these guttural heaving noises and you can tell they are not enjoying it one bit. And this is after maybe 20-30 minutes of gaiting, compared to a fit dog who might be panting in the heat but is nowhere close to slowing down and could run and work for hours. To me healthy, athletic dog is in working condition, not just a healthy looking dog that goes on a walk or two and plays some fetch. Nothing wrong with the latter, but I personally prefer a dog that's going to hold up during exercise and work.

[Mrs.K]

9 mo ~90 lbs

That can't possibly be healthy...