Old fashioned? REALLY???

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by Emoore

Yes, but being a puppy machine, being ignored and neglected, being yelled at, being dumped at a shelter. . . these aren't the kind of abuse that will turn an otherwise strong-nerved dog into an animal who's afraid of children, strangers, loud noises, people with hats, and different ethnic groups. It would take true sadism to turn a solid dog into one who's afraid of that much. But when folks come across a dog like that they always want to attribute it to abuse. Besides, 40-50% of kids aren't systematically abused. 40-50% of women aren't raped; 40-50% of people aren't murdered. But roughly 40-50% of the GSDs that come through our rescue have some sort of shy/skittish/weak nerve issue. And that's just sad.

I have the example of this sleeping next to me on the sofa.

Two rescues. Neither of these GSD's I would say are well bred and neither would be in any show.

One was abused, bred, neglected to the point of almost death from starvation and disease before being forcibly seized. Within 6 months she was stable, lots of drive, shows no fear and recovers from any new surprise almost instantly. Great with kids, people and dogs.

She recently had a reactive dog she approached snatch her entire nose and an inch of upper muzzle and latch on tight for a minute or two, much yelping, some bleeding and I'm hoping the marks across her muzzle aren't permanent. She totally recovered in under 30 minutes and was right back to meeting strange dogs without fear, she is a solid girl.

The other was a stray, likely not abused, but genetically a nervy wreck. She is frightened of almost anything new, and does not recover at all from many things that initially surprise her, terrified of lightning and thunder, or any loud noise etc,. Had the same thing happened to her she would not have recovered, she'll be a nervy problem her whole life.

Genetics play the bigger role in their differences in temperament, and it's night and day.

[Jessiewessie99]

Since the link is removed I can't see the site, let alone the pictures of the dogs.Are they that huge?lol.Are they mutated?lol.Anyone got pics?They seem like scary dogs o.O.

[RubyTuesday]

Jessiewessie99, the dogs are large to very large, especially the males. Many people find Djibouti frightening, but that's b/c he's very large (29.5") & vigorous. Those who 'read' dogs well aren't fazed by him. In fact they usually love him.

Her dogs aren't for everyone, (whose are?), but those who have them are largely very happy with them. I've never felt any need to denigrate others choices in dogs & I'm both amused & baffled by the many that huff & puff about over sized GS. Frankly, the breed faces far more serious challenges than Djibouti standing several inches over standard.

[StarryNite]

I have absolutely NO expertise in the breeding field, so forgive my ignorance. But I remember GSD's being pretty standard looking with high backs and now all I seem to see at breeder sites for American GSD's is this tall front that slants down where the hindquarters are low to the ground. It looks unnatural and painful for the dogs in my opinion, and I am honestly just asking, why are people breeding GSD's so their hindquarters are so low to the ground?

[mjbgsd]

I know show lines are often criticized for their size but I'm not really sure where it comes from, maybe they look huge in pictures b/c of coat? My show line male is 70lbs, 24". If your show line is too large and/or too heavy it will most definitely come up in the critique. I don't see a big difference overall in size of show lines vs. working lines. Most of the ones I see are a good size, but I don't see more oversized show lines than working lines.

When I went to my first SV show a few years ago I took Cody out to potty, we traveled very far so we had to take the dogs, and realized how tall he looked compared to the German Showline males. Cody is about 25.5'' but he is long thanks to his American half. Even Isa was mostly taller then most of the males but she is over standard at 25.4'' or at least close to that. I thought the dogs there looked great and not one dog was over standard as they measured them all. I'm thinking it's their body mass that makes them look big.

[Mrs.K]

Measuring doesn't mean anything.

Do you know how many dogs in Germany are measured and gekoered even though they are clearly oversized?

You can train a dog to appear smaller than he actually is.

[holland]

How do you train a dog to appear smaller than he is...maybe someone has been doing that with Rorie although I like small

[Chris Wild]

The dog is taught to scrunch his shoulders down when placed under the measuring wicket. Easy way, is tacks or nails on the bottom of the measuring wicket. He gets poked with them enough times and he learns to scrunch whenever the measuring wicket is placed over him... instant "shorter" dog.

[AbbyK9]

The thing that really bothers me about this thread is that someone early on in the thread said that people remember Strongheart and Rin-Tin-Tin, and that's the type of dog they want to buy. I don't understand this as an explanation because neither Strongheart nor the original Rin-Tin-Tin look anything at all like these dogs that are being advertised as "old-fashioned" German Shepherds.

Below are two photos. The one on the left is Strongheart, and one on the right is the original Rin-Tin-Tin. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see oversized, hulking behemoths of dogs when I look at Rinty and Strongheart.

As far as the breed standard goes ... people like to use the excuse that the modern breed standard was written much later and breeders *should* be breeding to what Max von Stephanitz envisioned. Unfortunately, it seems like those people generally have NO IDEA what Max von Stephanitz envisioned. Especially if they say that and breed oversized dogs. Because Captain Max was quite clear what he wanted -

Giants are never nimble. The ligaments soon give under the weight of the bones in times of hard work, especially in the forelegs on which they fall heavily at every step. Such dogs then use themselves up quickly when they are eager and full of ardor. They are, however, generally lazy and easy-going, and for that very reason are already unfit for service.

(...)

The breed type allows about 24" average height for dogs and bitches, with about 2" allowance either way. These dimensions are to be aimed at for all medium-sized service breeds as correct, whether the dogs are used for the flocks or for any other service. The service dog, like a good cavalry charger, must be indefatigable, enduring, and capable of maintaining a persevering, even quiet, but also a rapid gait, that is to say a trot, and also a gallop. Further, he must be mobile, capable of turning easily, and skillful in overcoming obstacles, whether by jumping or climbing. For this it is necessary to possess a specific size combined with strength.

(The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture, page 500.)

If you're breeding neither to the standard nor to what the breed's founder envisioned, exactly what are you breeding? Because IMHO it's not a German Shepherd.

[Liesje]

I don't have a problem with massive dogs, if that's what people like (but I wonder why not get a Shiloh, since that's how they look and act?), but I'm still not seeing how this represents the "old fashioned" GSD. I will never own one because personally I like a very lean, well conditioned, athletic, active dog.

I'm not super picky on size and I've never seen judges being really picky in shows either. My dog has never been measured besides my unofficial attempt to satisfy my own curiosity. They are required to be measured for Koer, but not every judge will measure during a show, and even if they do they do not have to throw the dog out because it's half an inch over or under. I have seen/heard many a judge comment on size in general- not specifically height, but a dog that is just plain massive and/or too heavy or not in correct condition. My bitch is a UKC champion with legs towards her Grand (meaning she has beaten other champions multiple times) and she's about half an inch under the standard height. In my experience showing in three different venues, the judge is looking at the overall size, and more importantly the condition of the dog. The dog must be lean and physically fit. Most dogs I see being marketed as the oversized gentle giants are simply just too heavy and not in correct condition.