Old fashioned? REALLY???

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by LaRen616

Starrynite

"I don't know much about this subject, but I have seen the pics of GSD's with their hindquarters so low it makes me cringe and think "ouch". From what I have heard and read that is not originally the breed standard and probably accounts for so many hip problems"


I agree with her. I also do not like that look.

I don't like it either but my understanding is that extreme rear angulation and/or croups has nothing to do with whether hips are good or bad.

[Chris Wild]

^^ Correct. The angulation seen on many American line dogs has NOTHING to do with hips. It is caused by an elongated and wider angled stifle (the knee/thigh) area. Nothing in the hip assembly causes this and angulation has no bearing on whether a dog is more or less prone to HD.

[MaggieRoseLee]

past to present (click that)

To see a great comparison with photos how our GSD's have changed. Old fashioned???

[LaRen616]

Those dogs look terrible! They look very painful to me. My dog is tall not slanted and I love him that way!

[Doc]

I have absolutley nothing against socialization. My pups are born in the laundry room. I am in there from the first sign of labor until the last pup is out. From birth, each pup is handled. cuddled, rocked, sang to, touched several times a day. The first two weeks of their lives they spend a majority of time with mom and siblings in the whelping box plus individual time with human interaction. The following two week, they spend "exploring", learning how to interact in the pack, letting mom clean and nuzzle, being exposed to different sounds, textures on their feet, etc. The next two weeks they spend more time together with sibblings, less time with mom, and more time interacting with humans. They also slowly weaned from mom to food with human scent all over it. Week 6 - 8 they spend even less time with mom, become more independant, learn the pecking order in the pack, spend more time with humans, are introduced to crate training, are exposed to various challenges, etc.

I'm not sure how that makes me against socialization?

And to the post about the German shepherds coming here after WWII. The better breeders imported the best bloodlines from Germany. Sure a lot of junk came in but kennels such as Long Worth, San Miguel, Rocky Reach, and the dogs from the Cosalta lines were all outstanding examples of proper bloodlines. Some of the greatest names in the history of the German shepherd were used during this period in the US. Unfortunately, some were not used enough and we missed our chance of becoming the nation with the best German shepherds in the world.

And Ruby Tuesday touched on a very important concept - weather you are breeding working line, show, or companion dogs, a knowledgable breeder of any "type" of dog is striving for the same thing - making the German shepherd dog better. When Chris Wild and I can agree on something - anything is possible! (no offense Chris, just trying to make a point. Besides, even though we may not see eye to eye on many things, when it comes to the German shepherd dog, we only want the best.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee

past to present (click that)

To see a great comparison with photos how our GSD's have changed. Old fashioned???

Well, those are the show dogs.

Check out the German working line.





That is a HUGE difference to the show line, isn't it?
If you compare that to the pics from the 40's to the 70's than you can see that there isn't much change but I still wouldn't call them old' fashioned thoug...

[Liesje]

I'm seeing more and more working lines with more angulation and rear for my taste, not as many as show lines of course but they exist. I also see a lot of very big working line dogs, both large and heavy. I know show lines are often criticized for their size but I'm not really sure where it comes from, maybe they look huge in pictures b/c of coat? My show line male is 70lbs, 24". If your show line is too large and/or too heavy it will most definitely come up in the critique. I don't see a big difference overall in size of show lines vs. working lines. Most of the ones I see are a good size, but I don't see more oversized show lines than working lines.

[crs996]

I believe socialization is good for all dogs, and think "genes vs. socialization" argument comes down mostly to two things in my layman's opinion:

1. What stimuli and how often the dog will portray a fearful state.

2. The time required by the dog to recover from the event.

Socialization will make a dog with good genes even more stable in day to day events, they will not react to things in as fearful a way, are more curious about their environment and accepting of challenges. If they DO get scared, they recover more quickly.
A well socialized dog with bad genes may have better recovery time than one with no socialization, but will still react to more situations, be more fearful, less outgoing, etc.

I have owned GSDs on various places in the spectrum, all were manageable but some needed more attention/effort.

In regards to different lines and their physical structure, I've personally experienced a big difference in stamina, speed and endurance with working vs. show lines. I've taken my dogs on 10+ mile horseback rides, the "working" dogs trotted along and seemed to have endless ability to do so, the "show" lines always had more difficulty. They could do it, but it was definitely harder for them. This is where the rubber hit the road for me, all the talk of angulation and balance made sense. German show line dogs were my first experience with GSDs, and as I pinpointed more what I wanted to do with my dogs, structurally sound working lines have been all I've had since.

This is my bone to pick with both American and German breeders (although I think "American show" shepherd breeders are the bigger offenders), is the structure. Of course, temperament and health are extremely important, but this area is where I've experienced the greatest loss of the Standard.

[Mrs.K]

That's true and I agree with you. I've recently seen pretty big working dogs and was amazed that they actually got 'gekoered' because they are completely oversized and you don't need to measure their size to know that.

As for the slope and rear, I totally agree with you. I don't like that either.

[dOg]

Based on the pictures, yeah, REALLY.

If the kennel clubs don't have to follow the standard and can make freaks then why would anyone have to adhere to it? The governance led the way to the insanity.

The breed is so fragmented and has pretty much undergone every horrible thing Max predicted and cautioned against. No matter which camp you choose from, there will be a larger majority out there telling you you made the wrong choice and that they wish a pox on your breeder for not doing it their more correct way.

What a load. Who cares? Get what you want, and be happy with it. As for all the belly aching about the good of the breed and who holds the holy grail of the true gsd,
nobody cares to hear it. The best gsd is the one you love. The rest is of little matter. Whether you rescued, have a mix, found a stray or had to buy the boat that brought it here, did the training, paid for the titles before hand, or the only work you put into it is vacuuming hair off the couch, it really doesn't matter.

Just-

Enjoy This Day, with your dog!
Go outside and play!