Black + White = Wolf?

[PaddyD]

Husky/Shepherd. My brother had a dog that looked just like that.

[carmspack]

When I met with Linda Shaw last week she loaned me a book -- The Shepherd Dog Review Vol 16 1939. I took a moment to go through some of the pictures . There are several pictures similar to the dog being discussed in this thread. Some of the best American kennels at the time, Giralda and Cosalta .
I am sure I can find some in archival material in the year books that I have from the United Kingdom breed club "Alsation League of Great Britain" and I am sure I can find some early founding stock in the von Stephanitz tome.

just for interest Breed Types & Related Families Not Found - Webs.com.

I don't know what the story is with C Eisenmann's "hobos" other than when he came around to the clubs looking for breeding material to perpetuate his colour for training replacements he was adamant that they were GSD. I was at one of his film locations in the Toronto Beaches and he addressed a crowd and said once again , yes they are GSD. In his book Stop Sit and Think or whatever the correct title is (I have it) he states they are GSD. So where and why all of a sudden is this mystery about a "secret gene"? Or creating stories of being , what did one writer offer a Tamaskan , which it can not be because the first Tamaskan was registered in 2002. Eisenmann's first "London" is from the post war period 1946 . When he was in the later part of the series "Littlest Hobo" he has 7 or 8 dogs - 2 were females. When I was at the Beaches shoot he had one dog that gave a paw at the store door, another one that specialized in barking , another one that walked up ladders etc. The filming would pause while the stand in was called for . The dogs appeared poky , inhibited . I am very interested in training so I followed and watched many times.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[Chris Wild]

Originally Posted by carmspack

I don't know what the story is with C Eisenmann's "hobos" other than when he came around to the clubs looking for breeding material to perpetuate his colour for training replacements he was adamant that they were GSD. I was at one of his film locations in the Toronto Beaches and he addressed a crowd and said once again , yes they are GSD. In his book Stop Sit and Think or whatever the correct title is (I have it) he states they are GSD. So where and why all of a sudden is this mystery about a "secret gene"?

Yes, he SAID they were GSDs. But also refused to ever share bloodline or pedigree information, preferring to keep it secret. People can say a lot of things, and that doesn't make it true. Structurally they do look like GSDs, and I've no doubt they're mostly GSD. But they are clearly a non-GSD color and when one bloodline, which is kept secret by it's propagator, produces a color no one else in the breed ever sees, I think it quite natural for people to speculate about there being something else in the woodpile. If this gene truly existed in the breed's gene pool, common sense says that it would appear in situations that weren't so questionable or using only secret bloodlines.

[Kaiser2012]

I'm not sure if anyone cares since this thread is quite old...however..

I am the photographer who took these images of Sako. I have not read every page in this discussion, however he is 100% German Shepherd.

I've seen both parents (one is american lines-white, the other is german- black). The parents have papers (although of course that does not mean they should be bred. All puppies from the litters were sable and ranged from silver to cream/tan. Only when the "breeders" had to replace one of the parents did the female produce any pure white pups. Note: these people were BYB. They LOVED the breed, and had been breeding their dogs for years. However, the dogs were oversized, not to standard, and the pups were not given the attention/socialization/training that most reputable breeders would give their litters. None of the dogs produced exhibited a black mask. The masking around the eyes was predominant in some pups and not quite as striking in others. It just depended.

At any rate, Sako had a very high (ball) drive, was loyal, protective, and a big ol' goofball. He was my dog's absolute best bud until he passed away.

[kai0401]

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...212-095710.jpg

[kai0401]

[kai0401]

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...212-095710.jpg

[4TheDawgies]

Originally Posted by Kaiser2012

I'm not sure if anyone cares since this thread is quite old...however..

I am the photographer who took these images of Sako. I have not read every page in this discussion, however he is 100% German Shepherd.

I've seen both parents (one is american lines-white, the other is german- black). The parents have papers (although of course that does not mean they should be bred. All puppies from the litters were sable and ranged from silver to cream/tan. Only when the "breeders" had to replace one of the parents did the female produce any pure white pups. Note: these people were BYB. They LOVED the breed, and had been breeding their dogs for years. However, the dogs were oversized, not to standard, and the pups were not given the attention/socialization/training that most reputable breeders would give their litters. None of the dogs produced exhibited a black mask. The masking around the eyes was predominant in some pups and not quite as striking in others. It just depended.

At any rate, Sako had a very high (ball) drive, was loyal, protective, and a big ol' goofball. He was my dog's absolute best bud until he passed away.

Very interesting!
Keep in mind the white gene in German shepherds is a masking gene. This means a white dog is actually a patterned dog. These white dogs (especially since the white breeders are breeding exclusively for white) can very literally look like anything under there as far as markings but still remain German shepherd in body type.
I don't think this dogs markings, specifically the face mask, excludes this dog from being a GSD.
I'm glad you came on and shared that with us. Even if no one responded until a year later almost lol

[Kaiser2012]

Originally Posted by 4TheDawgies

Very interesting!
Keep in mind the white gene in German shepherds is a masking gene. This means a white dog is actually a patterned dog. These white dogs (especially since the white breeders are breeding exclusively for white) can very literally look like anything under there as far as markings but still remain German shepherd in body type.
I don't think this dogs markings, specifically the face mask, excludes this dog from being a GSD.
I'm glad you came on and shared that with us. Even if no one responded until a year later almost lol

lol quite welcome! I actually had someone bring the pictures to my attention since I wasn't aware they had been copied from my flickr page. I think this post was my first post on this forum too, lol.

More of Sako:


sako by jsnail17, on Flickr


Untitled by jsnail17, on Flickr


sako at the beach by jsnail17, on Flickr

I think people get so caught up in coloration/markings/etc that you are right...the fact of the matter is, the structure (while oversized) is still that of a GSD. Sure, Sako was stunning to look at, but he was bred simply for what was a unique coat. He was very dog aggressive too (except with my Dakota, who was his "girlfriend") and had a VERY high ball drive.

The owners actually took another puppy from these breeders after Sako passed away at 3 (or 4) years of age. The second puppy came after one of the parents was "replaced". He is all white, and again very oversized.

In this picture, Dakota is 75lbs. Polar wasn't even 5 months old in this picture and you can see how big he is.


crazy eyed leap! by jsnail17, on Flickr


polar by jsnail17, on Flickr

[Anubis_Star]

I don't believe he's a GSD simply by his muzzle coloration. Lacking a black muzzle is a serious fault, and a DQ. VERY FEW GSDs, outside of whites and a few dilutes like blues and livers, lack a black muzzle. And this dog doesn't even have any hint of darker pigmentation around his nose.

Like someone else said, I would be more prone to believe the white "GSD" used in the breeding was actually a husky.

Beautiful dog, though.