Breedworthiness and Hips

[DianaM]

I'm sure that if all dogs that were bred had clear hips and their littermates and parents had clear hips then we'd eventually reduce the incidence of hip problems, but we won't know it SCIENTIFICALLY until it's tried. And many, many dogs are bred on a name for a buck, not for health and a more sound breed. There's something to be said about breeds that were built around dogs that were either completely healthy or removed altogether. Right now the GSD breed has so many health and temperament problems that it would be a big problem genetically to be so strict. It would be an extremely dedicated cleanup effort and considering the breed splits, I don't think the breed as a whole is ready for all that.

[cliffson1]

Diana,
This premise on breeding dogs who are without dysplasia and their parents and littermates likewise being dyplastic free is faulty because it would also necessitate that all the littermates of the parents would also have to be HD free. Their are no two dogs in the GS breed that meet that requisite so its not possible to do. HD is a part of the breed and in its current form it can be reduced to a certain degree but after that the pool becomes so narrow that you go into diminishing returns in terms of temperament and health issues. Their are plenty of "HD" freaks out their that are OCD about hips and have been for twenty years and they aren't producing 95% HD free dogs that were sound; or people would be flocking to them. Just like we will never have perfect uniform 25 inch size males 95% of time we will never get to 95% HD free with current breeding data available...JMO

[scannergirl]

Re: cliftonanderson's reply to DianaM:
You may not be able to but shouldn't you try?
See, I worry that people stop trying to look at lines, then they stop bothering to look at direct ancestors, and then heck, why even attempt to prove the dog you want to breed is HD free? Or if there is evidence that he is NOT disease free we'll breed him anyway because there is other nice stuff he has and besides, we don't think the test was correct.
I've seen that here, and it doesn't make sense to me at all.

[DianaM]

Quote:Their are no two dogs in the GS breed that meet that requisite so its not possible to do.

Start small. How about finding the closest examples then? A clear immediate family and one with maybe a mild or two. Mild's not that bad, really. Or a clear with one that is overall good but had one case of poor hips. Like with natural selection, the cheetah didn't pop out of the ground built to sprint the way it does, it just changed gradually over time. We can do this in the GSD breed. As the genetics get better, ask for more. The problems with this will be ensuring there is no increase in inbreeding (can we eliminate the silly splits?) and also ensuring other health problems don't get further cemented in. Pick and choose, I suppose. I don't think there will ever be total elimination but with smart breeding practices and HONESTY amongst the breeders, I think we can reduce it. Actually, maybe I hit the nail on the head with the honesty portion. So many breeders out there are in denial or will not be open about the health problems in their dogs or will ignore them and keep on breeding. This is the biggest issue. I do think it can be done. I also think that we may get to a point where outside blood will need to come into play or at the minimum the breed splits have to go away and all GSDs have to come together into one splitless breed.

As if that'll ever happen.

[cliffson1]

Lucina,
Why do people assume the extreme opposite when I point out the reality of hips. Of course good breeders are striving to breed for good hips, but I breed for good dogs which includes hips sufficient to do what the dog was created to do. I "do not breed exclusively for hips"....there is a difference. That's why there are different acceptable levels of hip certification. Smarter people than either of us has deemed that their are different levels of hips acceptable for breeding(A-normal,A-fast normal,A-NZ), and the reason this is in place by SV is because they recognize that some times there are dogs with less than HD Free hips that should be in the genepool because of their overall excellence. These people over the past 100 years have forgot more than I ever knew about GS, thats why I breed for the overall best specimens. A GS with with moderate HD or worse should not be bred because of the effect this condition will have on what the dog was made to do.......but the barometer must always be measured by the complete dog and not exclusively hips. And I see far to many GS with good hips that do not meet the GS standard in other areas and people don't have a problem breeding these dogs BECAUSE the hips are great!!! Somewhere along the line we have gotten this thing backwards IMO!!

[DianaM]

I do agree on that, I think there are a lot of cases of mild cases where there is never an issue and the dog continues working to a ripe old age. We should be eliminating the CRIPPLING hips, not the "well the shaft is slightly thick and the ball isn't perfectly round, I say Mild" hips, since those dogs usually never show one hint that they have problems. Same goes with elbows. Does a dog ever really notice the lowest grade of DJD?

But there is no excuse for breeding a dog with trainwreck hips even if it is mindblowingly spectacular in every other way. At least not while hips are such a big problem in the breed.

[lhczth]

Cliff, excellent post.

[scannergirl]

I have always been under the assumption that only HD free dogs should be bred. Apparently that's not correct.
How are we going to reduce HD then?

[DianaM]

You have to look at the overall family history. Would you want to breed a dog that has OFA excellent hips but came from a litter of 8 where the other dogs received moderate to severe ratings?

[scannergirl]

No, but I don't think that was the issue. They are talking about breeding a dog with mild HD.
I thought it went like this-
Find a dog with a great temperment who shows promise on the field.
Then test the dog for HD. First the dog itself, then the lines to make sure there isn't more HD than there should be in the lines.
I thought that would end the idea of breeding if HD was not ruled out in the breeding dog, and again if it WAS ruled out in the breeding dog but too prevalent in the lines.
If all is well then continue to work the dog and determine breed worthiness.
But maybe that's oversimplified.