Human manipulation???

[cliffson1]

I'd like to chat about this element. Hips, testicles, and ears are all things that owners/breeders can provide human intervention to decrease or eliminate the problem. My question is after this manipulation is done, should we consider these dogs breedworthy. Suppose the intervention wasn't done, (diet and weight with hips, taping the ears, tacking down the testicles), would people breed to these dogs??? What is the difference in what the same dog will produce if the intervention is or is not done?

[4TheDawgies]

The intervention if done soely for cosmetic purposes and the dog is not to be bred is fine IMO. No one wants to show a dog with one ear up and one ear down.

If a breeder or purchaser of a dog to be potentially used for breeding intervenes with the development of the dog such as the things listed above, then they are hiding the true fault of the dog.
There are things that can happen like an ear breaking in a fight, or sitting in a crate for too long etc. That would be fine to fix because its an external source that causes such.

But for a breeder to change the development of their dog to hide a fault their line passed down is just ridiculous in my opinion. Know what you breed and avoid it in the future.

[Emoore]

Is keeping a dog nice and lean and feeding them a healthy diet manipulating hips?

[4TheDawgies]

Originally Posted by Emoore

Is keeping a dog nice and lean and feeding them a healthy diet manipulating hips?

No its responsible dog ownership

[Emoore]

Originally Posted by 4TheDawgies

No its responsible dog ownership

I was thinking that too, but I always learn a lot from Cliff's posts and was hoping he would elaborate a bit more on why he included it with testicle tacking and ear taping? Is it possible to "fudge" a dog's hip scores through diet and exercise? Obviously we all want a dog who can stay orthopedically sound through weight fluctuations, pregnancy, etc.

[4TheDawgies]

Originally Posted by Emoore

I was thinking that too, but I always learn a lot from Cliff's posts and was hoping he would elaborate a bit more on why he included it with testicle tacking and ear taping? Is it possible to "fudge" a dog's hip scores through diet and exercise? Obviously we all want a dog who can stay orthopedically sound through weight fluctuations, pregnancy, etc.

it can be fudged slightly. A dog in very good condition with strong muscles will have better looking hips than the same dog would look with a non conditioned body. That is why when dogs are diagnosed with HD it is recommended to keep the dog not only light weight but exercise regularly. The muscles take up for the slack that the hips are not taking. Not to mention the muscles will push the hips into socket better giving a better overall image.

But you can only fudge it slightly. A dog with HD will be very obvious on x-rays to a professional. Theres no way you could go from "HD" to a "good" though.

[4TheDawgies]

I re read my above post and I wanted to correct what I wrote.

"No one wants to show a dog with one ear up and one ear down."

I actually meant to type
"No one wants to have a dog with one ear up and one ear down especially if its a pure bred."

If the dog is intended for show and is to be shown for show ratings or championships then IMO it is cheating to modify the dogs body other than a groom.

There was a (I believe it was)Pekinese that had to have surgery on its nasal passage to breath properly and won I believe Westminister. That to me is absolutely disgusting.

[Xeph]

If the dog is intended for show and is to be shown for show ratings or championships then IMO it is cheating to modify the dogs body other than a groom.

Then there sure are a lot of "cheaters" in the American show ring....

Many people do prophylactic ear taping. I don't agree with it, but people don't want to risk their "big star" having ears that don't stand.

For the record, the American girl that I own and show never had to have her ears taped. They were up when we got her at 12 weeks, and ever went down, even when teething (and she's got some big honkin' ears).

[Whiteshepherds]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

My question is after this manipulation is done, should we consider these dogs breedworthy....
....snip....
Suppose the intervention wasn't done, (diet and weight with hips, taping the ears, tacking down the testicles), would people breed to these dogs??? What is the difference in what the same dog will produce if the intervention is or is not done?

There would be no difference in what the dogs produced because they weren't genetically altered. The genes don't change because you hide or camouflage a fault. (So where are you going with this because you already knew the answer )

I'm not a breeder but whether or not the dog is breedworthy would depend on several factors. (I think?)
What was the fault to begin with and what are the odds of it showing up in future litters? How does it affect the dogs ability to work, it's temperament and it's health. Does the dog offer enough "good" in the mating to offset the original problem? There's a big difference between a soft ear and HD or cryptorchidism.

I'd say a cosmetic "change" like taping ears, although dishonest, (unless disclosed) isn't going to have the same impact on a line as hiding genetic problems that affect the health or temperament of the dogs. Altering a dog so it might win in the ring is just a hollow victory, but then again, conformation shouldn't be a stand alone source for determining breed worthiness. IMHO.

[carmspack]

good topic Cliff - more later