How did show lines evolve?

[Fodder]

this just dawned on me... and i hope i can explain myself properly...

if the kennel clubs & dog shows are to show/demonstrate a dog true to its breed, purpose and standard - how is it that they are now so far from the working lines? and i'm not talking just about a german bred dog vs an american - i mean, even in germany - how is there a difference between working lines and show lines.

and it isnt just with gsd, its with most breeds. golden retrievers for example - show lines tend to be blonde, working lines darker red... if the red is better suited for work - then how and when did the blonde come about?

so basically - if the dogs running around the ring cant perform the duties that they were originally bred for, then how are they an "example" of the breed?

or i guess in even less words - when & how did the lines get split?

[scannergirl]

What an excellent question.

[ldpeterson]

Originally Posted By: LucinaWhat an excellent question.

I agree! Now only if I knew the answer!

[DianaM]

The showlines differ in MANY breeds.

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

I may post more later. I do not agree with bench shows, in fact most conformation shows tend to ruin any breed of dog. Look what it did to the terrier, herding, and sporting groups, to say the least. I think the showring- and AKC acceptance- is the death knell of a working breed.

[umzilla]

First of all, I think that "showline" and "show dog" are not always one and the same.

Using the example of Goldens - I don't think coat color per se has anything to do with working ability, it's along for the ride. Let's say that a lighter dog (with little working ability) does well in the show ring. This is of course possible, because the judge is simply judging the looks of the dog. This dog gets breedings because people who want to win in the ring think this dog may be the ticket to success in the ring. In addition to passing on his winning color, he also passes on his lack of working ability (which they may not even realize or care about).

If, though, this dog DID have good working ability, he would probably pass that on as well (which they may not even realize or care about).

Take a darker dog with good working ability. If the judge doesn't like his structure and physical attributes, he won't put him up as the winner. He's judging the conformation of the dogs. This dog may get less breedings because people that want to win in the show ring will look at him as producing more dogs that look like him, which may not do so well in the ring.

Problem is, with the show, the judge can't see the dog's working ability - that's not what he's judging. Whether working ability gets passed on - or is even there in the first place - is a crapshoot, if you are breeding based on show results only.

Other breeders looking for a fantastic field Golden may breed 2 dogs with great working ability and not really care if either has ever set paw in the ring.

Multiply this by lots of dogs in lots of shows over years, and you can see how easily the lines can split.

Christine

[DianaM]

Many breeds also have certain characteristics that judges and breeders tend to capitalize on. In springers, it's the coat and the low-set ears. Now we have ridiculous coats on supposed working bird dogs and ears that are melting off the skull. In GSDs, it's the flying trot, and now the American line's structure revolves around that, thus we now have a dog that that trot very well, but little else overall (yes, there ARE exceptions). Look how much the border collie has changed. Now it doesn't look like a dog that could work on the farm. Check out the English bulldog. They took the wide shoulders and huge head to such an extreme that they cannot breed nor birth naturally and too much exercise (which isn't much) could harm them. This is no working breed even though it once was!

Judges pick what they like, breeders see what they like and now breed for what they like, judges like more of it, breeders breed more of it, and the feedback loop goes on.

Quote:if the dogs running around the ring cant perform the duties that they were originally bred for, then how are they an "example" of the breed?

They're not. If a springer cannot hunt in the fields, a border collie cannot herd, and a GSD cannot work, they're not the breeds they should be. A GSD must be able to do the work and be physically built to do the work or it is not a GSD. Many showlines cannot. In the German showline there are those that do. However, one still cannot lose sight of the conformation of the dog or else that can run away as well, but first and foremost should be temperament, ability, and health. Form will follow.

[DancingCavy]

As has been stated, conformation focuses on the structure of the dog. Somewhere along the line (with all breeds) people decided what the 'ideal' dog looked like. And that's what they aim to produce. Whether or not this ideal structure is capable of producing a dog that is able to do the job it was originally intended to do seems to be a moot point in most breeds. Steep upper arm angles and cowhocks are actually more ideal for a working herding dog (ie. Border collie) but they're frowned upon in the showring. Huskies have been breed to have tails that curl over their backs but this actually decreases the length of their back and impedes their running ability.

It's also the judge's opinion that can alter what wings in the ring. Most of us would agree that the dogs being shown under both AKC and FCI standards often don't match the picture of the ideal dog in the standard. There's no mention of roached backs or long stifles in the standards but dogs with these characteristics show up and place in the ring. Why? Because that's what a particular judge likes. And if enough judges like that characteristic (or what the characteristic does for the gait of the dog) then that's what people will breed. If they want to win, of course.

[Fodder]

so would it be safe to assume that the very first akc show (or any kennel club for that matter) showed dogs that resemble what we would now consider working lines? meaning that the split between the two happened years into showing and slow evolution of the breeds?

i know that over the years the dogs are getting "worse and worse" - but in the beginning was there ever a point when there was no difference between the lines?

thanks for the info and opinions guys (& gals)

[DancingCavy]

Originally there were no differences between the lines in all breeds. The dogs would come off the farm or out of the field to show for the day and would be back to work the next!

I actually find it quite fascinating to compare the older show dogs to the current show dogs. All breeds have evolved. . .and not necessarily for the better.

[lhczth]

Actually this is not true. The GSD has always had what were called "fancy" dogs. These dogs brought the look the founder wanted. They were then bred to the working sheep dogs to create the breed. Throughout the history of the breed there was a split between show and work, with some breeders breeding more one way or the other. They just did a better job of maintaining the balance back then.