small heads

**jocoyn** · 01-06-2008, 07:26 AM

I have recently seen some recent pictures of GSDs where the heads just look too small for the body. I mean really small. What is with that? I don't want to point to any pictures because I don't want to single out any dogs.............................but it looks freaky.

wolfstraum · 01-06-2008, 07:55 AM

Like anything else, when people breed, they look for certain traits - I have heard many people who are at the opposite extreme of the show lien breeders and say they don't care what the dog looks like, only that it can work....and pay no attention to head, bone, pigment etc. and pups end up looking more like mali's than shepherds!

the DDR and Czech lines seem to carry genetics for better heads and pigment - and IMO that is partially why they are sought out by pet owners - because of their looks.

Lee

**MaggieRoseLee** · 01-06-2008, 08:21 AM

My ElsaRose has a small head! Her breeder was breeding for health and temperament, so things like head size weren't really focused on. So she wouldn't win anything in a show ring, but I love her and she's got a great temperament and general health!

Funny but if you look at the very first GSD's their heads look nothing like the current dogs. So maybe the other thing is that when the heads start shrinking it's cause they are reverting back to type?

Look at this dog from AKC winners1923 GV Ch. Dolf von Duesternbrook PH

And this is one of the original German showline dogs VA Hektor vom Schwaben

(funny to compare to the latest German Showline winner, geez now these dogs have changed!)

2X VA1 Larus von Batu

doggiedad · 01-06-2008, 11:24 AM

i have a puupy with Ursus Von Batu in it's pedigree. i know, so what? i just thought i would mention it.

Liesje · 01-06-2008, 01:57 PM

Maybe the bodies are too big? I can't think of any super-tiny heads that stand out in my mind, but I can think of a few chubby/rotund dogs!

arycrest · 01-06-2008, 02:51 PM

Bruiser, American lines, is what I call a pin head - he looks like a bitch. IMHO his father has a nice, masculine head.

shepherdbydesign · 01-06-2008, 04:52 PM

Since this topis is in discussion. I have a show female that has a smaller head, the rest of her is exactly what I'm looking for. So could she be bred to a male that has a giant head and cure this problem?

my dog carmail · 01-06-2008, 08:09 PM

I've seen more American dogs with small heads then the other line's, I think it because most of the American line breeders don't participate in SCH and the only reason I see that the German highlines, DDR and German working line dogs have big heads is because they need a strong bite for SCH and for police work.

denwil2007 · 01-06-2008, 08:56 PM

that depends on the female and the male. I know of a breeder who's female always throws beautiful females, very feminine, but does not produce good male puppies. it's going to take more than one generation to correct heads.

chase's head is a bit snipey for me, but I have hope, because both mom and dad had good heads.
Chopper has a nice male head.

chopper is a amer showline and chase is a mix of ger/amer show and germ working (pure gsd mutt)

darylehret · 01-09-2008, 09:23 PM

Thought I'd share this relative link. This video talks of how body mass, speed and momentum affects the dogs takedown technique, and how headsize affects bite strength. There's probably about 15-20%/~32lbs. more biting strength in a larger head size.

Dog Attack Styles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZm037jPNgc

Dutch Shepherd
30 in. tall
130 pounds
224-231 lb. bite

Mastiff
32 in. tall
180 pounds
556 lb. bite

American Bulldog
20 in. tall
80 pounds
305 lb. bite

Malinois
24 in. tall
70 pounds
195 lb. bite

01-06-2008, 07:26 AM	#1 (permalink)
jocoyn Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8,037	small heads I have recently seen some recent pictures of GSDs where the heads just look too small for the body. I mean really small. What is with that? I don't want to point to any pictures because I don't want to single out any dogs.............................but it looks freaky. __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Grim (Grimmy Bear) & Beau (Bo-dee man) Waiting at the Bridge: Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

01-06-2008, 07:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
wolfstraum Crowned Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: PA Posts: 7,088	Re: small heads Like anything else, when people breed, they look for certain traits - I have heard many people who are at the opposite extreme of the show lien breeders and say they don't care what the dog looks like, only that it can work....and pay no attention to head, bone, pigment etc. and pups end up looking more like mali's than shepherds! the DDR and Czech lines seem to carry genetics for better heads and pigment - and IMO that is partially why they are sought out by pet owners - because of their looks. Lee __________________ Csabre Sch1, Hexe Sch2, Bengal, Kyra, Kira & Kougar v Wolfstraum ~ Basha Sch3, Ghost Sch3 - Danger Sch1 SAR - ATB/Ret - Kyra, Sch3, Alice Sch1, Kelsey, Fenja Sch3 wolfstraum.net

01-06-2008, 08:21 AM	#3 (permalink)
MaggieRoseLee The Agility Rocks! Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Bushkill, PA (The Poconos!) Posts: 22,205	Re: small heads My ElsaRose has a small head! Her breeder was breeding for health and temperament, so things like head size weren't really focused on. So she wouldn't win anything in a show ring, but I love her and she's got a great temperament and general health! Funny but if you look at the very first GSD's their heads look nothing like the current dogs. So maybe the other thing is that when the heads start shrinking it's cause they are reverting back to type? Look at this dog from AKC winners1923 GV Ch. Dolf von Duesternbrook PH And this is one of the original German showline dogs VA Hektor vom Schwaben (funny to compare to the latest German Showline winner, geez now these dogs have changed!) 2X VA1 Larus von Batu __________________ MACH2 Bretta Lee Wildhaus CGC TC TQX Glory B Wildhaus NA, NJ, NF + LOL (still) "*Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde*

01-06-2008, 11:24 AM	#4 (permalink)
doggiedad Crowned Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jenkintown,Pa. Posts: 9,843	Re: small heads i have a puupy with Ursus Von Batu in it's pedigree. i know, so what? i just thought i would mention it. __________________ "Life Without A Dog Is A Life Unfulfilled"

01-06-2008, 01:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
Liesje Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 12,962	Re: small heads Maybe the bodies are too big? I can't think of any super-tiny heads that stand out in my mind, but I can think of a few chubby/rotund dogs! __________________ UCH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop FO OB1 CL1R CL1F RA TT HIT TDI CGC VPC's Coca-Cola HIT CGC SG UCH Alta-Tollhaus Bono SchH1 AD T1 FO PA CL1R UNJ UCA HIT TT CGC OFA SG Pantalaimon vom Geistwasser BH AD HIT CGC

01-06-2008, 02:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
arycrest Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 8,088	Re: small heads Bruiser, American lines, is what I call a pin head - he looks like a bitch. IMHO his father has a nice, masculine head. __________________ Gayle & the Hooligans Mac, Slider, Bruiser, & Faith MY BRIDGE KIDS: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, & Honey The Hooligans Photo Albums!

01-06-2008, 04:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
shepherdbydesign Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 1,754	Re: small heads Since this topis is in discussion. I have a show female that has a smaller head, the rest of her is exactly what I'm looking for. So could she be bred to a male that has a giant head and cure this problem? __________________ http://www.shepherdsbydesignk9.com Velmi Dobra 5Y1/P Faust Cierna Vdova ZVV1, BH Narys Policia Slovakia SVV1 Cira Z Eurosport SCH-1 Ben Dobrovodske Lazne SCH-3, IPO-3, ZVV3 Sok Z Lintichu SVV2, IPO-1

01-06-2008, 08:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
my dog carmail Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Rockport, TX Posts: 237	Re: small heads I've seen more American dogs with small heads then the other line's, I think it because most of the American line breeders don't participate in SCH and the only reason I see that the German highlines, DDR and German working line dogs have big heads is because they need a strong bite for SCH and for police work. __________________ Carmail Wolf my first GSD. http://www.dogster.com/dogs/607306 Shine Rest in peace. ________________________________________

01-06-2008, 08:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
denwil2007 Master Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: OH Posts: 541	Re: small heads that depends on the female and the male. I know of a breeder who's female always throws beautiful females, very feminine, but does not produce good male puppies. it's going to take more than one generation to correct heads. chase's head is a bit snipey for me, but I have hope, because both mom and dad had good heads. Chopper has a nice male head. chopper is a amer showline and chase is a mix of ger/amer show and germ working (pure gsd mutt) __________________ http://www.showgermanshepherds.info for show and performance Sabian's Hot Pursuit v Southwind CGC --Chase Bleibtreu's Ransom of Coda CGC --Chopper T-Ho's BoclayBee-lieve in Me of Sabian-Cheetah

01-09-2008, 09:23 PM	#10 (permalink)
darylehret Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 169	Re: small heads Thought I'd share this relative link. This video talks of how body mass, speed and momentum affects the dogs takedown technique, and how headsize affects bite strength. There's probably about 15-20%/~32lbs. more biting strength in a larger head size. Dog Attack Styles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZm037jPNgc <u>Dutch Shepherd</u> 30 in. tall 130 pounds 224-231 lb. bite <u>Mastiff</u> 32 in. tall 180 pounds 556 lb. bite <u>American Bulldog</u> 20 in. tall 80 pounds 305 lb. bite <u>Malinois</u> 24 in. tall 70 pounds 195 lb. bite __________________ Ehret German Shepherds

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