Why all that bone and substance?

[elisabeth_00117]

My female is 23" at the withers and only about 60lbs or so. I think she is the perfect size for a female. For her SV critique at a year old the judge wanted her to have more bone, but I don't agree to be honest. I do like the look of the heavier bone, but wouldn't want to own a dog like that just because of the activities I do (schH, agility, herding and toting my dog around town).

My male is a blend of lines and is only about 84lbs and about 26" at the withers, he has good bone unfortunately he is not as agile as I would like or as graceful (I think this has to do more with his temperament than anything though... LOL).

[KristiM]

Whoops my bad the 2 small females I know are out of Orry not Erri

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Yoschi's_Pet_Human

How much is nature and how much is nurture when it comes to stamina??
Can you not condition a large structured dog to have all the stamina required for any sport?
I realize the toll of repetitive impacts and such,, but that aside, can't you condition for endurance and strength?

This is my point. It's not stamina that is an issue with a larger or heavier boned dog, it's the repetitive impact. To me that seems like a law of physics. A larger animal running at the same speed (because GSDs aren't really any faster in agility or flyball than other sized dogs) is going to hit a box or contact or land a jump with more impact. So, all other things being equal (ability to train for stamina and endurance, agility, good temperament, good speed....) the heavier dog is likely at risk of breaking down a lot sooner. Nikon is really on the line of the size and substance I'm comfortable doing these sports with, but since he is only an average flyball dog (4.4-4.8 seconds) I'm OK with it. If he starts getting faster I have to be increasingly picky about his technique and whether it's something he should be competing in every month.

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by elisabeth_00117

My female is 23" at the withers and only about 60lbs or so. I think she is the perfect size for a female. For her SV critique at a year old the judge wanted her to have more bone, but I don't agree to be honest. I do like the look of the heavier bone, but wouldn't want to own a dog like that just because of the activities I do (schH, agility, herding and toting my dog around town).

My male is a blend of lines and is only about 84lbs and about 26" at the withers, he has good bone unfortunately he is not as agile as I would like or as graceful (I think this has to do more with his temperament than anything though... LOL).

See that is what I am talking about, your female is BEAUTIFUL and looks like she could work all day long. Why the heck would you want to add bone to that? In my mind the only purpose it would serve would be slowing her down and aging her early.

You sure can increase stamina enough to be able to compete in pretty much any sport (except maybe sledding.) But competing and actually being "competitive" are two different things. Plus I am more talking about the overall wear and tear on a dog, the bigger (stockier) they are the harder work is on them.

(Lol, posted at the same time as you Liesje)

[wildo]

I find this thread really interesting, in many ways. I'd like to see some of the big name breeders comment- as I felt the same way as you, Kristi. I know the smaller GSDs are out there. Zefra sure rocks, and as I think we've discussed in the past- Lisa Clark's dogs are on the smaller side.

I also cringe when I hear of a nice small female being breed to a much larger, more substantial male. What a shame in my opinion. I have all the same concerns about impact and wear and tear on the body. It's all reasons why I just couldn't pass up on little Jinks. But Pimg- yes, there IS wear and tear on her from agility from her weight/size. Good luck finding what you're looking for. Though they are out there- I think they are few and far between.

[KristiM]

Maybe I will get lucky and a dog like Jinks will fall into my lap one day

I do really like Lisa Clark's dogs! I just need to get over my huge preference for males. The size difference between the two sexes seems to be quite different. You hear about lots of females around 50 pounds but I have yet to hear of a male under 70 pounds. My husband worked closely with a male military working GSD (handled by a Dutch soldier) and that dog my husband said was maybe 65 pounds, I have videos of him and he is quite small, super athletic. But that's the only one I have personally heard of. (No idea what kind of lines he was.)

[wildo]

That was another issue I had. I wanted a female in order to stay on the small side, but also didn't want two bitches living together. One is enough... I feel like I was really lucky (well, probably lucky; let's wait to see his hip/elbow scores)- but I did read above that you're not into Mals, so... hahaha!

Personally, and this is pure speculation on my part, even the really good breeders (those who I would consider really good anyway) don't understand just how much physical stress is put on a large dog in agility competition. I'm not talking about AKC, or really even CPE (I think breeders "get" this style of agility)- but if you want to do AAC or USDAA, I think that style of agility is foreign to GSD breeders and they generally don't understand the athleticism required. So they'll tell you that the 75-80 pound male was built to turn. Sure.. maybe... but not like that. And when they CAN turn hard, you still have all the wear and tear from Newton's 3rd law of motion. Hard to argue with physics. Just my opinion.

[gagsd]

Kind of OT but Jerry Kiah at Kiahaus does lots of agility and breeds as well. His wife commented to me once that she (they) prefer smaller dogs.

[Cassidy's Mom]

Going with a female will definitely increase your odds of smaller/more agile. My WGSL dogs have had LOTS more bone and substance than Halo does, and I don't think she's all that unusual. I guess I never really thought of the WL dogs as having tons of bone before, but I'm sure there are some out there. The DDR dogs maybe, vs the WGWL.

Halo is only 60 pounds, and she's a nice size for flyball and would probably do well in agility too. People in my club ask me why I don't bring Keefer out, and at 80 pounds (not to mention nearly 7-1/2 years old!) I don't see the point. He was fast when he was young, but he's nowhere near what he used to be now, and Lies's point about the larger dogs and increased impact is what I'd be concerned about.

[KristiM]

I'm kinda surprised none of he breeders on here have chimed in on this. I agree wildo most people don't really get just how hard AAC/USDAA type agility is on a big dog. I do understand that GSDs are not bred for the sport of agility. But Xeph also had an excellent point about urban disaster type work, a substantial dog would also have a super hard time functioning in that type of role as well. Then there's flyball, at this point I can't see havoc (my 85 pounder) being able to do a 2 day tournament running full time on a team. (He would probably do it because of mind over matter, but he probably shouldn't.)