Not everyone wants a Schutzhund dog.....

[W.Oliver]

....I read that in another thread, and it seems reasonable, because not every pup in a litter produced in a working dog kennel is appropriate for work...herding or schutzhund....and since we do not cull in today's world, companion homes are necessary.

Having said that, those "companion" dogs that have not/cannot establish breed worthiness by titling, should not be bred simply to produce more companion dogs....this is where I start to get heartburn.

The GSD is a working dog, plain and simple and just as not every pup is appropriate to work, not every owner is appropriate to own even a companion GSD let alone a working GSD.

So it begs my question which is somewhat rhetorical....why no working title requirements for "American Show Lines" are they the companion line of GSDs?

If I was going to get a German Shorthaired Pointer, even though I do not hunt, I would look for a kennel that breeds gun dogs. Folks who hunt their dogs, and breed for the best bird dog they can...one that meets not only the standard for the breed but the tradition of the breed....and I would ask the breeder for a companion pup, one that may not be as cut-out for working a field and flushing game....and what I would have would still be a reasonable representative of this sporting breed.

If the GSD doesn't herd or bite, and if the Pointer doesn't hunt...isn't it evolving into something different?

Does that comparison make any sense?

[ayoitzrimz]

[Emoore]

Are you saying that the AKC or GSDCA should institute working title requirements, or that buyers should have their own? Because the former just isn't going to happen, and I believe the latter is pushed on this forum rather heavily.

[dawnandjr]

Makes absolute sense. Remember, common sense is not so common.There are NO requirements for anything in the United States of America for a dog. Our standards are pretty low as a whole. Responsible breeders have stepped up to the plate and demanded standards for themselves. The are ASL breeders that do health checks and titles on their dogs. My GSD doesnt bite or herd, but she is a great companion, titled in AKC obedience, and has passed her health checks. She comes from working lines and looks like the GSD's reminiscent of the 1960's. What did they do with dogs 60 years ago that werent culled at birth. Not everything is evident at birth. I am sure puppies from those litters were kept as companion dogs as well.

[Chicagocanine]

Originally Posted by W.Oliver

So it begs my question which is somewhat rhetorical....why no working title requirements for "American Show Lines" are they the companion line of GSDs?

I think it is common for "show" breeders to focus on conformation. I am referring mostly to AKC show breeders here, not just in the GSD but in general any breed. Although some show breeders do other activities with their dogs, I think many just focus primarily on conformation titles and are breeding primarily for show dogs.
It is common in many breeds that there is a division between "show" and "working" dogs. Often times this is not just in the goals of the kennel/breeder but there are two or more separate lines of dogs and they differ in appearance to some extent. You find this in many breeds but especially in herding/sporting breeds: Golden Retrievers (field vs. show), Irish Setters, Labs, Australian Shepherds, Border Collies, Cocker Spaniels, and so on.

Examples:
Show vs Working Cockers - Janan Cocker Spaniels
Australian Shepherd Herding and Show Line Differences - Pure Stock Aussies
LABRADORNET - Show and Field
Field vs Show ESS's
Irish Setters

[Lucy Dog]

Kaz... Is that you?

[Whiteshepherds]

I agree with everything you wrote, was just curious to know which titles you would classify as working titles?

[selzer]

I think that there is a chasm between the working line thought and the show line thought. Both think there's is the best and truly meets the breed standard. Showline breeders may think that you can title any dog, but you can only put a conformation championship on the elite. Working line people think and say, any dog can trot around a ring, but only the elite can work.

If show dogs go and get schutzhund titles, working line fanciers will just say that the titles are boughten or that schutzhund isn't what it used to be. A schutzhund title or a herding title does not ensure that the dog can work as a police dog, service dog, or herding dog as its regular job. Schutzhund is trained, just like obedience, agility, protection, herding, tracking, etc. If you have one dog and put your heart and soul into that dog, regardless of its native ability and lack of nerve, you can train that dog to do just about anything. Does that make it breedworthy? Is it breedworthy because you managed to get an acceptable on all three stages on the same day? Maybe, maybe not.

You go ahead and try and force American line GSDs to get schutzhund titles on their dogs, but in order to breed your dog, you need to get an AKC championship on your working line dog. There ya go. Whose dogs are by and large going to be bred? I personally think the people with AKC champions will be able to finagle schutzhund titles on their dogs before by and large working line dogs get AKC championships.

[martemchik]

Again, its centered towards American show lines. What requirements are there to breed German show lines? Or German working lines? There will never be requirements in the United States because the AKC is a volunteer registration organization, and the market just doesn't demand that dogs are titled. Also there is no way of regulating such requirements. In Germany, they are self regulated, and the dogs are cheaper. There isn't a need for lower priced dogs as a lot of dogs are already affordable. This is because it doesn't take as big of a monetary commitment to train the parents and title the parents as it does in the United States. In my mind its all economics, but lets not just throw it on one line, its all the lines. There are plenty of breeders importing and not doing anything to work their dogs and reaping the benefits of other people's work, would it make you feel better to buy from one of those breeders or one that actually cares about their animals and does show them in a conformation ring?

[Holmeshx2]

Wayne I completely get what your saying. There are some showline breeders that believe in worrying about conformation but also temperment and having the drives they should have.. granted they may not be producing world lvl competitors in the sports but their dogs CAN work and I believe those breeders are doing a great service to the breed. Those showline breeders that are creating dogs that can barely walk but have the angulation judges are looking for etc.. well they are just ruining the breed... paint a picture of the most gorgeous shepherd you could think of and go trot around the ring holding the picture up if you just want it to look good.. the breed is meant for more then that. While I'm not against showline breeders I just believe there are few who are doing it right. Thankfully we have some on this board who breed showlines (gorgeous ones) but they still have some drive to them and can get into some sports if their owners choose to. I do not however think those that go into companion homes should be bred the breeding should be left solely to those that can work either by titling and proving it or by dogs that are out there actually working in things that don't take titles (actually working a farm all day, police work etc..)

All for if you want to be extra careful to make sure its a dog with great conformation etc.. however still think outside of the ring they need to be training and doing other stuff... beauty without brains gets you nowhere