Not everyone wants a Schutzhund dog.....

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Ponypip123

To be another kind of devil's advocate, the European system of evaluation, of which I'm much more familiar with in the horse (warmblood) world, really weeds out people that don't have a large amount of extra, spendable income. I think the United States is so large population wise that there will always be dogs and even competitions in many price ranges. Just because someone doesn't have several thousand dollars to invest in their dog initially, should those people never have a German Shepherd?

Those people should have a German Shepherd, but not breed them. In the United States it is still all about money. I drive an average of 1 hour to get to the closest AKC obedience trial which pops up once a month. I don't know how long I would have to drive to find a Schutzhund trial. I know that I would have to drive an hour just to find a Schutzhund club.

Its also not that no one can breed the perfect package, its that no one can agree on what that is...

[horsegirl]

Originally Posted by selzer

I think that there is a chasm between the working line thought and the show line thought. Both think there's is the best and truly meets the breed standard. Showline breeders may think that you can title any dog, but you can only put a conformation championship on the elite. Working line people think and say, any dog can trot around a ring, but only the elite can work.

If show dogs go and get schutzhund titles, working line fanciers will just say that the titles are boughten or that schutzhund isn't what it used to be. A schutzhund title or a herding title does not ensure that the dog can work as a police dog, service dog, or herding dog as its regular job. Schutzhund is trained, just like obedience, agility, protection, herding, tracking, etc. If you have one dog and put your heart and soul into that dog, regardless of its native ability and lack of nerve, you can train that dog to do just about anything. Does that make it breedworthy? Is it breedworthy because you managed to get an acceptable on all three stages on the same day? Maybe, maybe not.

You go ahead and try and force American line GSDs to get schutzhund titles on their dogs, but in order to breed your dog, you need to get an AKC championship on your working line dog. There ya go. Whose dogs are by and large going to be bred? I personally think the people with AKC champions will be able to finagle schutzhund titles on their dogs before by and large working line dogs get AKC championships.

like

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by msvette2u

Nobody can seem to breed a "total package", including conformation and working ability? Is it that much of a mystery??

Look at a dog like Javir. Two times V-rated at the BSZS, including showing a progeny group. Numerous top placements at the high level. Universal Sieger. Great specimen of GSD and a little fun fact, he's a house dog.

[Liesje]

I am not bothered that a dog can earn a rating its first time in the SV ring and can earn a lifetime breed survey after two breed surveys. How is a dog's conformation going to change once it is an adult? The point of SV shows and breed surveys is to evaluate the dog for breeding and part of that is conformation. Most people are not competitive, they don't want to show their dog a dozen times for years to get a special title like an AKC CH. I have nothing against people wanting to be competitive with conformation, since I'm competitive with a lot of things, but there's a difference between being competitive and getting your dog evaluated. A dog should not have to be in an exclusive group in order to be used for breeding. Then we just bottleneck this breed even more than it already is. Most of my favorite dogs as far as conformation are mid-pack V-rated dogs (show and working lines) not the VA1 dogs or Grand Victors. A dog does not have to be the winner at anything much less more than one thing in order to be breed worthy, IMO.

[RubyTuesday]

However, I'd much rather have a not so pretty dog that can work instead of a dog that could win any conformation title but can't be used for anything outside that ring

Sadly, the extreme structure that usually wins in the show ring is, IMO, aesthetically hideous. Frankly, most of those dogs are, again IMO, truly not at all 'pretty'. Pretty color? Sure...Pretty head? Sometimes. Pretty structure? Bleh. This is true, IMO, of many of the fad extremes sought after in show dogs in so many breeds. All too often health, longevity, temperament & basic function are also sacrificed in the quest for the 'ideal show dog'.

A show rating is a bit different than a championship. A championship is so many points, you must defeat all dogs to get points, you must get major points, meaning a class size of so many dogs. Every dog that shows up on show day with no disqualifying faults is not going to get points, they are not going to get the championship. They go home completely empty and put forth their money on another day, and another and another.

Unfortunately, the champion GSDs I've seen in my area (Eastern Iowa) are ghastly examples of not just the breed, but of dogs in general. It grieves me to say it, but when I last bothered looking at them some years ago, they were snappy, anxious, poorly focussed wrecks of what a dog s/b, never mind what a working dog should exemplify.At one show, every GSD (which included Champions), EVERY SINGLE ONE , snipped at the judge. When crated they lunged & snarled. On lead they shied & cringed. And in my area at least, this was the norm, not the exception.

Yes, there are several outstanding SL breeders on this board. Unfortunately, what I've personally seen, indicates those breeders are the rare exception, not the rule. Given my personal observations, I can't consider a Championship to be an asset or an indicator of good breeding.

How is a dog's conformation going to change once it is an adult? The point of SV shows and breed surveys is to evaluate the dog for breeding and part of that is conformation.

Some break down prematurely. For others, genetic anomalies don't strike until the dog is matured & already capable of breeding. I'm much more impressed with a dog that looks good at 11 than one that shines at 2 or 3. For slower maturing dogs, even temperament can continue to develop into the 3rd & 4th year. Someone's 2-4 yr old dogs might get my attention, but it's the 10-12 yr olds that hold my attention.

A dog should not have to be in an exclusive group in order to be used for breeding. Then we just bottleneck this breed even more than it already is.

Absolutely. That's an excellent point & bears repeating.

Also, it's (IMO) important to recognize that from the beginnings of the breed, the GSD was an outstanding & much valued companion, as well as utility working dog. The numerous photos in the Capt's book, & his abiding affection for his dogs, amply establishes that. GSDs unsuited as companions are a travesty & a betrayal of the Capt's vision. Given the necessary socialization, training, mental & physical exercise, a well bred GSD should be a reliable companion & family member.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

Some break down prematurely. For others, genetic anomalies don't strike until the dog is matured & already capable of breeding. I'm much more impressed with a dog that looks good at 11 than one that shines at 2 or 3. For slower maturing dogs, even temperament can continue to develop into the 3rd & 4th year. Someone's 2-4 yr old dogs might get my attention, but it's the 10-12 yr olds that hold my attention.

But the breed survey is just that a BREED survey. Dogs 2 years to usually 6 years old. Dogs being evaluated for breeding are generally 2 years or older and not 10-12 years old. Same with the adult classes in the SV shows. There is a veterans class for giving a nod to an older, accomplished dog but the point of the event is to evaluate a dog for breeding, which is why the critiques note what the dog could improve and what the mate could improve on.

[robinhuerta]

Since I'm one of those believers that a title does not make a good dog....but a good dog can make a title......I also happen to be one of those people that want it all.
I don't want an ugly dog that can work...nor do I want a beautiful dog that possesses no working ability, and is a living caricature.

*I want a beautiful/pretty dog that has the capabilities of work that is defined for this breed....nothing more, nothing less.*
One does not need to be the BEST of what it does....but it better be able to do it. JMO

[bocron]

Originally Posted by W.Oliver

If the GSD doesn't herd or bite, and if the Pointer doesn't hunt...isn't it evolving into something different?

Does that comparison make any sense?

I recall a few years back (maybe 10-15) when AKC didn't even recognize a Schutzhund title. (They also tried to ban dogs that participated in the sport from competing in AKC events as well!)
IIRC the SV sent notice to the AKC that they must recognize the titles from the breeds home country and even better, promote it, or the SV and hence the FCI would no longer recognize AKC papers. They also made a statement that they could possibly recognize the registrations, but that the breed would be re-named a North American Shepherd and no longer a German Shepherd. This is one of the reasons the GSDCA-WDA came to be.
I'm still hoping the SV/FCI will get some gumption and go ahead with it.

[RubyTuesday]

Lies, I agree, but it's wise to evaluate a stud's or dam's breed worthiness throughout their lives as perceptions & realities can change. To do this formally might be inconvenient, but I'd think/hope that breeders do a current analysis of dam & stud as well as rely on earlier documentation.

[Liesje]

Agree, I would never rely on breed surveys exclusively to make breeding decisions but they are there to reaffirm certain things and must be done at least twice, I believe two years apart. Furthermore if a dog is campaigning for VA the judges want to have seen that dog on several occasions plus several progeny. I just brought these things up in response to the comments about how a CH is difficult to get and a dog can get a rating or a breed survey as a once-off, which is not entirely true, but more to the point that these are just minimum standards for breeding so they aren't going to be as competitive as something like an AKC CH nor should be.