Blues/Livers

[Sarah79]

I have shown dogs (not GSD's) since I was about 12 years old. I have never bred a litter, as there are already great breeders out there I can buy from lol. I also do rescue work and work with dogs that are hard to place. Recently we decided to get another GSD as our passed about a year ago. A friend of ours offered a puppy from an accidental litter since we were looking for a pet. The litter was not going to be registered as there were only a couple pups and they were pet quality. We chose the female with the temperament that we liked. And as it turned out, she has an odd coloring. In the light, her black looks more liver. And in the shade, or indoors, her black looks blue? She will be spayed and I do NOT promote breeding for "rare" colors that are serious faults. And we plan to use her in Search and Rescue if she has the ability, and we also will do obedience and hopefully schutzhund. My question is, is it possible she ended up with BOTH the liver and blue genes? Is that even possible?

[LaRen616]

Hello, welcome and congrats!

Where are the pictures?????

[katieliz]

the dilute gene manifests as either blue or liver i believe (but do not know for absolute sure and don't have time to research it). i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong. i have a blue girl, she was powder blue when she was born, her black now appears steel blue and her tan is more of a carmel. her ears have opalescent rims.

welcome to the board!

[abakerrr]

In a black dog, there is the possibility of a color dilution, making the black wash out to a blue hue. In a liver dog, there can also be the possibility of a dilution, but that would give the dog an isabella hue. There cant be a liver dog with a blue diluted coat and vice versa. The best way to tell is to look at the dog's nose leather... That will give you an immediate indication as to what the base color is.

Here is an aussie website but its the same idea/ principal.
Dilute Aussies

[Chris Wild]

Blue dilutes black to a steel gray color. Liver dilutes it to a chocolate brown color (same as chocolate labs, they are actually liver dilute black labs). Light on hair can play games and make things look different depending on the lighting conditions. Looking at the leather of the nose and eye rims will provide the best guess. If the nose is gray, it's a blue. If the nose is brown, it's a liver.

Yes it IS possible for a dog to have both blue and liver dilutes. They are not mutually exclusive and can be inherited together, though it would be very uncommon in GSDs as there just aren't enough dilute genes floating around in the gene pool for them to double up like that very often. When that happens, the black pigment on the dog comes out a lighter, mousy brownish gray color. Same color as an isabella/fawn Doberman which is the same genetics, a double dilute. Just happens more in Dobes as blues and reds (liver) are more common in that breed, so genes doubling up is more common too.

[Chris Wild]

This website has some good info on the dilute colors in GSDs, including some photos of double dilute (fawn) GSDs.

BlueDogs - Find Information about Blue, Liver and Isabella colored German Shepherd Dogs!

[Andaka]

What Chris said.

[Freestep]

Pictures needed!

Don't Weimaraners have both liver and blue dilute genes? Or is theirs a whole 'nuther color?

[abakerrr]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

Blue dilutes black to a steel gray color. Liver dilutes it to a chocolate brown color (same as chocolate labs, they are actually liver dilute black labs). Light on hair can play games and make things look different depending on the lighting conditions. Looking at the leather of the nose and eye rims will provide the best guess. If the nose is gray, it's a blue. If the nose is brown, it's a liver.

Yes it IS possible for a dog to have both blue and liver dilutes. They are not mutually exclusive and can be inherited together, though it would be very uncommon in GSDs as there just aren't enough dilute genes floating around in the gene pool for them to double up like that very often. When that happens, the black pigment on the dog comes out a lighter, mousy brownish gray color. Same color as an isabella/fawn Doberman which is the same genetics, a double dilute. Just happens more in Dobes as blues and reds (liver) are more common in that breed, so genes doubling up is more common too.

Im not sure if the terminology is whats confusing here but the liver color isn't a "dilution" of black, just a difference in base color. Black (BB) and Black + liver-factored (Bb) both present as dogs with a black hue to their coat (such as your typical GSD). Liver dogs (bb) present with a chocolate color to their coat but this is recessive, so it only occurs when two copies of the gene are present in a breeding (meaning, both parents are either liver or liver-factored carriers).

Separate from the base coat color gene modifier, the dilution of these two colors can happen when the dilution gene modifier is present. This affects the eumelanin pigment cells, giving the black or liver (which ever the dog genetically has) a warmer, diluted tone. The isabella color isn't a double dilute but rather a dilute of the red or liver base color, just as the blue color is a dilute of the black base color.

[Chris Wild]

Originally Posted by abakerrr

Im not sure if the terminology is whats confusing here but the liver color isn't a "dilution" of black, just a difference in base color. .

You're correct that it isn't technically a dilution. The blue gene dilutes black pigment. The liver gene blocks the formation of black pigment. So they work on black pigment somewhat differently from a scientific standpoint. But in laymens terms they are both dilutes.

I don't know what you mean about liver being a "difference in base color". There is no true gene for liver in dogs. Not in the sense of regular color genetics. Liver is always a recessive modifier of black, so genetically liver dogs are black dogs with modifiers that turn the black pigment liver. This is why liver/red/chocolate/etc.. colored dogs of any breed don't ever have black leather. A liver dog will not have any black pigment anywhere. Everything that would be black if the dog didn't carry liver will be chocolate brown in a liver dog.

Originally Posted by abakerrr

Black (BB) and Black + liver-factored (Bb) both present as dogs with a black hue to their coat (such as your typical GSD). Liver dogs (bb) present with a chocolate color to their coat but this is recessive, so it only occurs when two copies of the gene are present in a breeding (meaning, both parents are either liver or liver-factored carriers).

Yes, both blue and liver are recessive, and two genes must be present for the dog to express as blue or liver.

Originally Posted by abakerrr

Separate from the base coat color gene modifier, the dilution of these two colors can happen when the dilution gene modifier is present. This affects the eumelanin pigment cells, giving the black or liver (which ever the dog genetically has) a warmer, diluted tone. The isabella color isn't a double dilute but rather a dilute of the red or liver base color, just as the blue color is a dilute of the black base color.

Yes, Isabella is considered a dilution of red (liver). But to be red/liver in the first place, the dog possesses genes that block black pigment from expressing as black, and turn it red(liver) in the first place. Hence them often being termed "double dilutes". The blue and liver genes work somewhat different in how they effect black pigment, but either way the black has been changed twice (once to red/liver, then diluted further with the blue gene) the end result in appearance of the dog is the same. An Isabella is a red (black pigment turned red through one set of recessive genes) further diluted with blue. Same end result.

I think we're saying the same thing, just a slight difference in terminology.