What is angulation?

wildo · 10-13-2011, 10:15 AM

We often see threads (especially the critique threads) where someone mentions that a dog has "good angulation." What does this actually refer too? I thought it referred to the angle I've highlighted on these totally random images I found on google images:

Quite honestly- I'm not even sure what that joint is called. Is it the knee? So is angulation referring to the angle of the knee joint? The WGSD above is about a 90* angle while the ASL GSD is much more acute. I kind of have a feeling that "angulation" is more than just the angle formed at the knee though...

Can clarify for me? Thanks!

**lhczth** · 10-13-2011, 10:28 AM

This is a diagram I did awhile ago. Something to note is how LONG this dog's upper arm was.

PaddyD · 10-13-2011, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lhczth

This is a diagram I did awhile ago. Something to note is how LONG this dog's upper arm was.

Did you choose this dog for a reason?
I am no expert but, to me, he looks well proportioned and angulated while not being over-angulated. Nice back and topline.

wildo · 10-13-2011, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lhczth

This is a diagram I did awhile ago. Something to note is how LONG this dog's upper arm was.

Can you clarify what your lines mean on that picture? The front must be the angle (referred to as the "layback"?) of the shoulder, correct? The rear lines I am unclear about- mostly because my dog anatomy terminology is not up to snuff.

Also- is "angulation" always determined by the foreground legs on a stacked dog? In my images, I choose the rear leg in the background. But in yours, you chose the foreground leg.

...But even putting terminology aside- what is "proper" angulation? And does that answer change between who you ask? (As in ASL vs WGSL vs WL)

carmspack · 10-13-2011, 10:46 AM

if the dog is spare on angulation the forward movement will be impeded , or more effort put into it , which is tiring and can't sustain
if the dog's back is too long or roached movement is affected , especially in the quick turns in agility
if the dog has too much rear angulation then the back end will have lost forward thrust and be wobbly

don't go after an ideal agility dog ---- select an ideal GSD

we had Marty McCann , who I competed against when I first went into the obedience ring. Terrific person, did very well with his (airedale? - temporary memory lapse) .
Later on he got involved with fly - ball and border collies , known for speed .
He and his wife set up one of the most competitive , active , Fly ball leagues McCann vs McCann for people in the GTA , Hamilton area . Untoucheable . Winning all the time. And then they had a breeding program creating dogs specifically for fly ball , agility . Crazy , wild , dogs . Mixes with greyhounds and border collies , and not the stocky Scottish type . The dogs were so extreme that they were only suitable for the sport.

Select a healthy , directable , dog with good angulation , balanced , in body , balanced in mind --

Carmen

wildo · 10-13-2011, 10:54 AM

Carmen- in my agility dog thread, you did say to look for proper angulation. I wanted to keep that thread on topic (the pedigree) and so I started this one. I agree (to an extent) on selecting for the "ideal GSD." Problem is, I don't know how to spot the ideal GSD because I don't know what terms like "angulation" actually mean.

Thus this thread.

[Off topic- my "to an extent" comment is in regards to "well bred/balanced" GSDs perhaps not having the flashyness or extreme speed that "sport/performance" GSDs might have. I think there's a spectrum here and I'd stay near the "well bred balanced" end- just perhaps not all the way to the end of the spectrum.]

msvette2u · 10-13-2011, 11:00 AM

Wildo, I am the same.
Does angulation refer to the leg, or the back, or the leg joint?
Our vet who is working with Yasmine keeps saying she's "over angulated".
She said her back leg (the upper part whose name escapes me right now) is too long making her cow hocked and weak. I think Yasmine was dealt a bad hand before the vehicle smashed her, but this is what our vet keeps saying.
Is this accurate? Is the leg itself too long, and that makes a dog "over angulated"?
What part of the body is "wrong" to make a dog look this way?

**MaggieRoseLee** · 10-13-2011, 11:03 AM

An interesting thing structurally that was mentioned is it's not just about the angles that are formed at the joints...

It's also abou the length of the bones involved that cause the angles. Think when we see the back legs walking on the ground and the extreme lowered back end, it also goes along with some very long upper leg bones...

**Chris Wild** · 10-13-2011, 11:22 AM

Angulation refers to the angles of the upper limbs. In the front that would be the shoulder and upper arm. In the rear, it refers to the stifle joint, where the upper leg (femur) and middle leg (tibia) come together at the knee. The length of the bones and way they are put together, as well as looseness and tightness of ligaments (particularly in the rear) determine the angulation.

It has nothing to do with the back.

Most often angulation refers to the rear end, unless the front is specified. In dogs with lots of angulation, typically seen more in American lines, it is due to a long and open stifle (long bones and more obtuse angle where they come together).

msvette2u · 10-13-2011, 11:27 AM

Okay, yeah. It's the stifle that's too long (??) in Yasmine. She has that cow-hocked appearance, which we attributed to her being young and "soft", not much muscle tone since her right leg was so badly damaged.
I don't know if it will change, but our vet said amputating her right leg would not be good due to the "over angulation" of her left/good leg.

10-13-2011, 10:15 AM	#1 (permalink)
wildo Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 3,230	What is angulation? We often see threads (especially the critique threads) where someone mentions that a dog has "good angulation." What does this actually refer too? I thought it referred to the angle I've highlighted on these totally random images I found on google images: Quite honestly- I'm not even sure what that joint is called. Is it the knee? So is angulation referring to the angle of the knee joint? The WGSD above is about a 90* angle while the ASL GSD is much more acute. I kind of have a feeling that "angulation" is more than just the angle formed at the knee though... Can clarify for me? Thanks! __________________ Willy Pimg - DOB: 2/06, CL1-R, CL1-S, CL1-F, CGC

10-13-2011, 10:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
lhczth Administrator & LOTR Addict Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 11,695	This is a diagram I did awhile ago. Something to note is how LONG this dog's upper arm was. __________________ Lisa Clark Zu Treuen Händen Working German Shepherd Dogs *South Michigan SchH and Police Club*

10-13-2011, 10:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
wildo Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 3,230	Carmen- in my agility dog thread, you did say to look for proper angulation. I wanted to keep that thread on topic (the pedigree) and so I started this one. I agree (to an extent) on selecting for the "ideal GSD." Problem is, I don't know how to spot the ideal GSD because I don't know what terms like "angulation" actually mean. Thus this thread. [Off topic- my "to an extent" comment is in regards to "well bred/balanced" GSDs perhaps not having the flashyness or extreme speed that "sport/performance" GSDs might have. I think there's a spectrum here and I'd stay near the "well bred balanced" end- just perhaps not all the way to the end of the spectrum.] __________________ Willy Pimg - DOB: 2/06, CL1-R, CL1-S, CL1-F, CGC

10-13-2011, 11:03 AM	#8 (permalink)
MaggieRoseLee The Agility Rocks! Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Bushkill, PA (The Poconos!) Posts: 22,205	An interesting thing structurally that was mentioned is it's not just about the angles that are formed at the joints... It's also abou the length of the bones involved that cause the angles. Think when we see the back legs walking on the ground and the extreme lowered back end, it also goes along with some very long upper leg bones... __________________ MACH2 Bretta Lee Wildhaus CGC TC TQX Glory B Wildhaus NA, NJ, NF + LOL (still) "*Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde*

10-13-2011, 11:22 AM	#9 (permalink)
Chris Wild Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 12,604	Angulation refers to the angles of the upper limbs. In the front that would be the shoulder and upper arm. In the rear, it refers to the stifle joint, where the upper leg (femur) and middle leg (tibia) come together at the knee. The length of the bones and way they are put together, as well as looseness and tightness of ligaments (particularly in the rear) determine the angulation. It has nothing to do with the back. Most often angulation refers to the rear end, unless the front is specified. In dogs with lots of angulation, typically seen more in American lines, it is due to a long and open stifle (long bones and more obtuse angle where they come together). __________________ *Wildhaus Kennels* Kaiser ~ SchH3 CGC TDI (HOT) Raven ~ SchH3 AWD2 PD1 P1 PA T1 UCD URO2 CGC TT (B/HOT) Della ~ SchHA TR1 PD1 P1 PA T1 URO2 CGC TT (B/HOT) Wulf ~ SchH1 PD1 P1 T1 URO2 CGC TT (B/HOT) Heidi ~ BH CD UCD RN URO1 (B/HOT) Jazz ~ Superpup In Training

10-13-2011, 10:46 AM	#5 (permalink)
carmspack Knighted Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 3,324	if the dog is spare on angulation the forward movement will be impeded , or more effort put into it , which is tiring and can't sustain if the dog's back is too long or roached movement is affected , especially in the quick turns in agility if the dog has too much rear angulation then the back end will have lost forward thrust and be wobbly don't go after an ideal agility dog ---- select an ideal GSD we had Marty McCann , who I competed against when I first went into the obedience ring. Terrific person, did very well with his (airedale? - temporary memory lapse) . Later on he got involved with fly - ball and border collies , known for speed . He and his wife set up one of the most competitive , active , Fly ball leagues McCann vs McCann for people in the GTA , Hamilton area . Untoucheable . Winning all the time. And then they had a breeding program creating dogs specifically for fly ball , agility . Crazy , wild , dogs . Mixes with greyhounds and border collies , and not the stocky Scottish type . The dogs were so extreme that they were only suitable for the sport. Select a healthy , directable , dog with good angulation , balanced , in body , balanced in mind -- Carmen

10-13-2011, 11:00 AM	#7 (permalink)
msvette2u Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Beautiful Pacific NW Posts: 5,505	Wildo, I am the same. Does angulation refer to the leg, or the back, or the leg joint? Our vet who is working with Yasmine keeps saying she's "over angulated". She said her back leg (the upper part whose name escapes me right now) is too long making her cow hocked and weak. I think Yasmine was dealt a bad hand before the vehicle smashed her, but this is what our vet keeps saying. Is this accurate? Is the leg itself too long, and that makes a dog "over angulated"? What part of the body is "wrong" to make a dog look this way?

10-13-2011, 11:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
msvette2u Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Beautiful Pacific NW Posts: 5,505	Okay, yeah. It's the stifle that's too long (??) in Yasmine. She has that cow-hocked appearance, which we attributed to her being young and "soft", not much muscle tone since her right leg was so badly damaged. I don't know if it will change, but our vet said amputating her right leg would not be good due to the "over angulation" of her left/good leg.

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