When is a GSD not a GSD

[Jack's Dad]

I love the breeder threads because of their knowledge of the breed.
I am puzzled though sometimes by the debate.

Without a breed standard there is no breed. The GSD standard is very specific with regard to physical and temperamental characteristics.

So assume you have dogs with GSD pedigrees going all the way back.
Now say they are white, or weigh 130lbs, or they have too much angulation.
Then you have those folks that breed for specific traits. Like oversized or white.

These dogs by pedigree are GSD's but not to breed standard.
I'm not talking about minor faults like a little too tall or that type thing but about those who breed specifically for traits outside the breed standard.

So my question, which I'm sure will be really stupid to some, is when is a GSD not a GSD? Can you regularly an purposely breed outside the standard and call it a GSD. If so then what purpose does the breed standard have.

This has nothing to do with these dogs being beloved family companions no matter what color or size or anything else.

[selzer]

Yes, you can deliberately breed outside the standard and still have a GSD. The white GSD is an example, thought they have been trying to get recognition as a different breed. Blues and livers would also be examples of this. Breeding bitches that are large to dogs that produce large pups, to get large dogs, and then breeding those dogs to try to get larger dogs -- still GSDs.

If you mix Great Pyranese or Alaskan Malamute or wolf in to increase the size -- then you have a mutt, not a GSD.

If you breed for square dogs, or flat backs, or long collie-type snouts, you still have a GSD so long as you do not add any other breed in to get that trait.

[Freestep]

Well, technically, a dog whose pedigree contains nothing but GSDs all the way back is still a GSD. However, if I see someone breeding 160 lb GSDs that are solid fawn with no black pigment, with narrow, collie-like heads, drooping ears, square proportions, sagging backs, and dull, lazy temperaments, I might be bold enough to say "that is NOT a GSD." Even though it technically is.

As a rhetorical situation, I wonder what would shake out if all the dogs in the world went extinct except for purebred GSDs, and these remaining GSDs were to breed randomly with no human intervention. What would the breed look like after, say, 50 years? Would we still want to call it a GSD?

[Jack's Dad]

Originally Posted by selzer

Yes, you can deliberately breed outside the standard and still have a GSD. The white GSD is an example, thought they have been trying to get recognition as a different breed. Blues and livers would also be examples of this. Breeding bitches that are large to dogs that produce large pups, to get large dogs, and then breeding those dogs to try to get larger dogs -- still GSDs.

If you mix Great Pyranese or Alaskan Malamute or wolf in to increase the size -- then you have a mutt, not a GSD.

If you breed for square dogs, or flat backs, or long collie-type snouts, you still have a GSD so long as you do not add any other breed in to get that trait.

That just doesn't seem right. It makes the breed standard seem like some vague document that means nothing as long as you have 2 dogs with pedigrees. Actually I would prefer 2 random GSD's to breeding for some personal characteristic or trait someone is shooting for that is not to the standard.

[Whiteshepherds]

Originally Posted by Jack's Dad

That just doesn't seem right. It makes the breed standard seem like some vague document that means nothing as long as you have 2 dogs with pedigrees. Actually I would prefer 2 random GSD's to breeding for some personal characteristic or trait someone is shooting for that is not to the standard.

Let me start by saying I know your post is about people breeding against the standard and has nothing to do with those of us whose dogs fall into that category. So I get it, you aren't attacking anyone or their dogs on a personal level and I thank you for that. This is an interesting topic. So let me tell you why I support a breeder that breeds away from the standard.

By going with the breeder I did I ended up with two healthy,confident, well balanced dogs that know the difference between a kitten and a mountain lion and act accordingly. They don't need special handling, respond well to training and show good basic instinct. They're loyal, gentle when they need to be, and amazingly loud when it's called for. I don't worry about hidden genetic problems in the line because the breeder is one of the founders of the White Shepherd Genetics Project. She understands genetics, and she understands dogs. The breeder doesn't import her dogs with titles, she raises them from pups, trains, handles and titles them.

This isn't an either or line. I didn't have to know the difference between working and show lines and decide what I wanted to do with my dogs before I got them. Therapy, K-9, Service, SAR, VCD2, CDX's, UDX's, TR3, TDX, FG70K, FMCH, OTCH, BH, family dogs, companions...they're all in the line. Versatility. The hallmark of a good shepherd. There's some CH's in there too but naturally, they're from clubs that don't discriminate based on color. It's never a matter of CAN my dogs do something it's always about whether or not I want to take the time to work with them.

Now I might be an idiot but regardless of what the standard says, and regardless of how you or anyone else views the subject, I'm going to say that given the choice between what I have and what I see happening to the GSD as a breed, (always exceptions) I'm going to keep supporting the breeders that produce versatile, healthy, well balanced dogs and for now, I'm finding those dogs in the whites.

As much as I respect the intended objectives of a breed standard, until Schutzhund becomes a real test and until show lines start doing more than stacking in the ring, (always exceptions in both cases) I don't see where the standard you're so attached to is doing much good anyway.

[Samba]

Some breed clubs (not with GSDs obviously) require more characteristics than just a pedigree for registration as a member of the breed.

[paulag1955]

It seems to me that the question behind the original question is, "What makes a GSD a GSD?" What, really, is the essence of the breed? Are German Shepherds just a bundle of physical characteristics? Or do their psychological and working characteristics make them German Shepherds?

[Lucy Dog]

Originally Posted by paulag1955

It seems to me that the question behind the original question is, "What makes a GSD a GSD?" What, really, is the essence of the breed? Are German Shepherds just a bundle of physical characteristics? Or do their psychological and working characteristics make them German Shepherds?

Probably depends who you ask... ask 10 people and you might get 10 different opinions.

Ask the breeder who breeds specifically for pets and they'll probably tell you it's the registry where the dog can be registered. Ask the schutzhund enthusiast and they may tell you working ability. Ask the show people and they may tell you it's the physical characteristics. Ask the breed enthusiast and they might tell you all of the above.

[Vandal]

When is a GSD not a GSD? Right now. In the year 2011, the GSD is the furthest away from being a GSD than it has ever been.

[nitemares]

Originally Posted by paulag1955

It seems to me that the question behind the original question is, "What makes a GSD a GSD?" What, really, is the essence of the breed? Are German Shepherds just a bundle of physical characteristics? Or do their psychological and working characteristics make them German Shepherds?

I believe it's all the above. There's a reason why it's called a standard, and it's not just about looks or working ability. It's a package. It is a shame whats happening to gsds these days, especially in my country.
I love all dogs, purebreds and mutts. but i see people selling gsd pups around here from "pure bloodlines, champion parent" without any regard to temperament, nerves, or even physical characteristics, and honestly and i cant believe i'm saying this, they're ugly!
To me that's not a GSD