Explain this for me?????

cliffson1 · 05-14-2011, 07:58 PM

In 2009 USA Seiger show, one of the entries was V Boy von Zorra, Sch1, KK1.
From his breed survey:" A dog with exceptional structure and color and a head that is out of this world. Very strong boned, very strong head, very masculine. I would think that because of the male characteristics this dog has to offer, he will be a dominant producer when used for breeding. High withers,firm back, the croup is a little bit steep but is of the correct length. He has good angulation in front and very good angulation in the rear. He moves correctly going and coming and is absolutely free. I believe this is a very good dog for the German Shepherd population in America."
This dog was rated V23 at this Seiger Show. This dog by all accounts was the most impressive dog in the Adult class in performance and was given the Performance Recognition Award in the show.
Here is what I can't fathom....1) Did we really have some thirty some dogs in that show that had better structure/movement/temperament than this dog?(If so where are these dogs?????),2) How does a dog with a Sch 1 out perform ALL the dogs with Sch3 that were placed higher than him????
Finally, was he penalized because of his color, his background, ???? Couldn't be progeny group because many many of the dogs ahead of him had no progeny group.
How do we reconcile the facts of this dog with the opinion of the judge?
I am interested in understanding the thinking of NOT placing a dog of this ilk in the VA status so that some of the staus seeking breeders would use him and bring new genetics into the show world.
ps ...If someone could post a picture of him for the discussion I would appreciate it.....Just trying to get a healthy discussion that may open up eyes to what has happened to the breed so that our show/working dogs are not the same....it can be done!!

onyx'girl · 05-14-2011, 08:03 PM

:: BILL KULLA: Males ::

Quote:

was he penalized because of his color, his background, ????

Probably, when the black and reds dominate the judging

Whiteshepherds · 05-14-2011, 08:29 PM

There's at least two video's of him on YouTube if anyone wants to watch him. One getting his SchH2 and the other his SchH3.
Just go to YouTube and type in his name, they should show up on the first two pages.

Elaine · 05-14-2011, 09:56 PM

This is my breeder's dog and he's very impressive in person. I believe he was penalized because he wasn't a showline dog. I only vaguely remember looking at the results and there weren't very many workingline dogs listed.

**Andaka** · 05-14-2011, 10:24 PM

Could it also be that at the time of the show he was only a SchH1?

Elaine · 05-14-2011, 10:35 PM

I doubt it. I heard all about the protection abilities of the show dogs. Sad.

codmaster · 05-14-2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

:: BILL KULLA: Males ::

Probably, when the black and reds dominate the judging

Perhaps the other higher dogs were a little better in conformation? Would that have been a factor in the judges mind? Only the judge could state for sure why he didn't place higher.

The picture does show a somewhat roachy back but without seeing the higher dogs hard to say if that might have been a factor. He might also have been lacking in movement either side gait or coming and going.

Diificult to explain (understand?) a lot of judges placements at shows of all types.

robinhuerta · 05-14-2011, 11:14 PM

We helped train as well as handled *Boy* for the Sieger Show AND the previous show 1 month earlier...where he placed in front of the VA1 dog.
Boy placed V1 in that show.
The judge for the Sieger Show (2009) was a huge disappointment to many of us.....VERY politically motivated, and highly decisive towards specific kennels.

Boy was not "fairly" judged nor placed in the 2009 Sieger Show.....although he could not place in the VA group, do to the fact he was only a ScH 1 at the time.....he SHOULD have placed (honestly) higher in the V-ratings.

BTW...Boy is more impressive in person than in the picture....

cliffson1 · 05-14-2011, 11:21 PM

In the Sept/Oct issue of the USA magasine they have pics of all the VA males......many had roached backs. As for being Sch 1, how do we reconcile his performance award over the Sch 3 dogs that were VA. I think the rules in the U.S., allow fro a Sch 1 dog to go VA. The bigger issue is the dog has structure and temperament that is proven to be exemplary, and certainly some of the VA dogs do not have exemplary temperament as witnessed by the videos of the performance aspects. So why would n't the breed take the opportunity to put this dog forward that has much needed genetics, instead of burying him down in 23rd. These kind of actions cannot be good for the breed in the long run, imo!

robinhuerta · 05-14-2011, 11:27 PM

Cliff....a dog must have a ScH 2 kkl1 to qualify for the VA title for the 1st time.
If the dog competes to place VA a second time...the dog must then be ScH3 kkl1...to repeat the title.
The rule is governed by the SV...and both organizations support it.

*Wanted to add...the above rule does not apply to any other show.*
ANY dog with a min of ScH 1, kkl1 can place V1....in front of ScH 2 & 3 dogs.

05-14-2011, 07:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
cliffson1 Knighted Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,929	Explain this for me????? In 2009 USA Seiger show, one of the entries was V Boy von Zorra, Sch1, KK1. From his breed survey:" A dog with exceptional structure and color and a head that is out of this world. Very strong boned, very strong head, very masculine. I would think that because of the male characteristics this dog has to offer, he will be a dominant producer when used for breeding. High withers,firm back, the croup is a little bit steep but is of the correct length. He has good angulation in front and very good angulation in the rear. He moves correctly going and coming and is absolutely free. I believe this is a very good dog for the German Shepherd population in America." This dog was rated V23 at this Seiger Show. This dog by all accounts was the most impressive dog in the Adult class in performance and was given the Performance Recognition Award in the show. Here is what I can't fathom....1) Did we really have some thirty some dogs in that show that had better structure/movement/temperament than this dog?(If so where are these dogs?????),2) How does a dog with a Sch 1 out perform ALL the dogs with Sch3 that were placed higher than him???? Finally, was he penalized because of his color, his background, ???? Couldn't be progeny group because many many of the dogs ahead of him had no progeny group. How do we reconcile the facts of this dog with the opinion of the judge? I am interested in understanding the thinking of NOT placing a dog of this ilk in the VA status so that some of the staus seeking breeders would use him and bring new genetics into the show world. ps ...If someone could post a picture of him for the discussion I would appreciate it.....Just trying to get a healthy discussion that may open up eyes to what has happened to the breed so that our show/working dogs are not the same....it can be done!!

05-14-2011, 08:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
Whiteshepherds Knighted Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Northeastern Connecticut Posts: 2,771	There's at least two video's of him on YouTube if anyone wants to watch him. One getting his SchH2 and the other his SchH3. Just go to YouTube and type in his name, they should show up on the first two pages. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Harley-WS 4-23-07 Annie-WS 10-18-07 RIP Dakota - WGSD 1995-2007

05-14-2011, 09:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
Elaine Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,784	This is my breeder's dog and he's very impressive in person. I believe he was penalized because he wasn't a showline dog. I only vaguely remember looking at the results and there weren't very many workingline dogs listed. __________________ Elaine and the herd

05-14-2011, 10:24 PM	#5 (permalink)
Andaka "I like Daffy" Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Douglas, IL ( near St. Louis) Posts: 2,435	Could it also be that at the time of the show he was only a SchH1? __________________ Daphne and the Gang at Andaka Where Beauty and Brains Come Together http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...&results_in=10 Home of Ch Natty; Ch Doll; Jag RA (ch ptd); Sara RN (ch ptd); Bella (the new one); and Fisher (Mr. Evil) At the Bridge: Ch Kahla CD; Ch Keno UD HSAs OA; Ch Kizzy HSAs RE; Ch Tag CD RAE2; Ch Pharra; Bee PT; Ch Red the Dachshund

05-14-2011, 10:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
Elaine Crowned Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,784	I doubt it. I heard all about the protection abilities of the show dogs. Sad. __________________ Elaine and the herd

05-14-2011, 11:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
robinhuerta Knighted Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,224	We helped train as well as handled Boy for the Sieger Show AND the previous show 1 month earlier...where he placed in front of the VA1 dog. Boy placed V1 in that show. The judge for the Sieger Show (2009) was a huge disappointment to many of us.....VERY politically motivated, and highly decisive towards specific kennels. Boy was not "fairly" judged nor placed in the 2009 Sieger Show.....although he could not place in the VA group, do to the fact he was only a ScH 1 at the time.....he SHOULD have placed (honestly) higher in the V-ratings. BTW...Boy is more impressive in person than in the picture.... __________________ Huerta Hof German Shepherds www.teamhuertahof.com ....where breeding is still considered an art....

05-14-2011, 11:21 PM	#9 (permalink)
cliffson1 Knighted Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,929	In the Sept/Oct issue of the USA magasine they have pics of all the VA males......many had roached backs. As for being Sch 1, how do we reconcile his performance award over the Sch 3 dogs that were VA. I think the rules in the U.S., allow fro a Sch 1 dog to go VA. The bigger issue is the dog has structure and temperament that is proven to be exemplary, and certainly some of the VA dogs do not have exemplary temperament as witnessed by the videos of the performance aspects. So why would n't the breed take the opportunity to put this dog forward that has much needed genetics, instead of burying him down in 23rd. These kind of actions cannot be good for the breed in the long run, imo!

05-14-2011, 11:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
robinhuerta Knighted Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,224	Cliff....a dog must have a ScH 2 kkl1 to qualify for the VA title for the 1st time. If the dog competes to place VA a second time...the dog must then be ScH3 kkl1...to repeat the title. The rule is governed by the SV...and both organizations support it. Wanted to add...the above rule does not apply to any other show. ANY dog with a min of ScH 1, kkl1 can place V1....in front of ScH 2 & 3 dogs. __________________ Huerta Hof German Shepherds www.teamhuertahof.com ....where breeding is still considered an art.... Last edited by robinhuerta; 05-14-2011 at 11:29 PM.

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