Intellegent disobedience vs. Genetic Obedience

[jocoyn]

Ok don't you hate it when we start planning for a new partner?

Now for the next topic......(and I did search).....the trait of intellegent disobedience.....a dog who will blow you off when you are wrong, the biggest example being seeing eye dogs blocking the handler from an oncoming vehicle.

Is this trained or genetic? Is this consistent with a dog with genetic obedience or not?

Also hear of this as desired trait for SAR/Detection. The dog you cannot talk out of a valid indication.

Ok ok I am NOT trying to get to the scenario that Timmy is in the well and Lassie won't go get help because she can weave a ladder out of vines and lower it to him more quickly..ok...


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Because my current dog is so biddable, I have to work extra hard to make sure I do not tell him he is wrong when he is right or reward a false indication. He is easy for me to mess with / mess up. Has forced me to be a better handler though.

But, I have seen SAR handlers miss or blow of a trained indication because they did not trust their dog..........

My female, who is very independant and headstrong would not allow me to do this, my male would. Though I will give him credit, when it was clear there was a body in the water (we do not reward for indications during real searches), after 5 trained indications he ran to me and bit the ball in my pocket and I took him off scene and worked a problem so I could reward him.

[Rerun]

With guide dogs at least, it's trained. We used to raise leader dog for the blind pups and that is definitely a trained behavior.

Some dogs certainly, in some avenues, may exhibit it themselves.

[carmspack]

guide dogs -- trained. I shadowed a trainer , even took a dog through the courses where I was blind folded and had to trust my dog --.
This was with canine vision canada in the early years - 1980's .
It is still part of "genetic" obedience . The dog completes a task, is able to work well independently , correctly, and under guidance .
k9 handler doing search after hours in huge mall, dog kept dragging him back to one spot, handler could not possibly see how "he" would be there, had own ideas, kept on dragging dog back to service utility room in stairwell because to his logic that was the only reasonable place to be , he wanted the dog to check it out again, convinced the dog missed something -- uh uh -- dog kept dragging him back to spot, so they opened the metal curtain - and yes -- there he was hiding under a seasonal display with decorative cloth to the ground. Not taught.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[phgsd]

Yes...I see it with Kessy in herding.
She is very "biddable," she loves to please and work for me, very good genetic obedience.
But - she will give me the finger if she thinks she's right...lol
For example - last week we were herding. She had worked for 3 hours, which is a lot longer than she's used to plus she is hopefully pregnant. So I stepped out to the border to put her in a platz so she could rest for a few minutes. Way down on the other border (at least 50-75 yards away), she saw some sheep starting to cross the border. I wasn't going to worry about them, they really weren't going anywhere, I just wanted to let her rest. But she took off, I called her back pretty harshly but it's like I wasn't even there, she completely ignored me, chased the sheep back into the graze, and then came back when I called.
With her, it's definitely not a trained behavior, she's always had a tendency to do this. Most of the time it's helpful although last week I wish she'd have listened so she could rest!

[szariksdad]

I don't know as if I would call it intelligent disobedience. However when we train for tracking in Sch. our TD reminds everyone to trust the dog and not be so headstrong as to believe we are right. After all if you have given the dog the skills and encouraged it work through problems mentally it will do the same on the actual scenario.

[Andaka]

I have always refered to it as the "caretaker gene". Some dogs seem to have it more than others -- I have seen my dogs stop a child from running on a hard surface, stop me from stepping into a hole, or stop me from leaving the property when I was a child.

[lhczth]

Having seen dogs fight for the track even when their stupid owner keeps pulling them another direction because they just KNOW they are right, I believe, at least in this area, it is genetic.