GSD Non-Standard Colors/Markings?

[GSDLover84]

Okay so I'm new to GSDs and I've never actually had any pure breds....just mixes through the years, but I'm going to a Police Academy and I'm looking at getting a couple of dogs to use in my job from a breeder who's been at it for more than 30 years and has produced numerous top police dogs, a Secret Service dog for a VPs detail, 9-11 search and rescue heroes, movie and sitcom stars, and just good wokers and pets. These dogs are two brothers. One is Panda and the other is Liver. I like the unique and these boys qualify.

My question is, why the big color controversy? Is there a logical reason other than it's not to breed standard? I'm not making light of Breed Standards, but I'd really like to know if there's anything else? Are there dilute/Panda lines out there that don't have health problems that seem to be associated with the dilute and spotted GSDs?

It seems to me that there aren't any breeds out there where the only difference between that breed and another is it's color. There's so much more to the breeds than that. Conformation, personality, ability, trianability, etc seem like they should be much more important. Why make a fuss over colors that are naturally occuring in a breed because a breed association decided that the breed should be a certian color(s)? Especially in a breed where the founder is reported as saying "No good dog is a bad color"?

I'm looking for some good opinions that are reasonable and from those who don't have anything to gain either way (which seems to be difficult to obtain). Whatever dogs I get, I'd like to breed if they turn out to be exceptional at their jobs, but I want dogs that are going to last me a very long time and will be healthy and happy and will be good breeding prospects in the long run if they prove to be exceptional at their job. If anyone can help, I'd be very greatful.

[KZoppa]

unlike in other breeds, I've not heard of colors in GSDs being a link to health problems. I dont generally pay much attention in the way of colors according to breed standard so i'm really not much help. Research the Panda Shepherd. Its a GSD with just unique coloring. It was found in one litter and the gene has only been linked to that particular lineage. Other people will be able to better explain that whole mess with breed standards and such. I dont plan on showing my dogs so coloring standard coloring doesnt mean much to me. I have a black male, a classic black and tan female, and two sables. I'd love to have a blue shepherd and a panda shepherd and i know there are people on here who would probably love to ring my neck for admitting such things. I'm not knocking liver colored shepherds but brown or chocolate is just not a color i'm interested in or like.

[W.Oliver]

Originally Posted by GSDLover84

.....My question is, why the big color controversy?

There is no color controversy.

There is controversy over working and non-working GSDs. When the breed was founded by M. Stephanitz, it was established as a working dog with a breed worthiness test called Schutzhund...Herding, the original test, was/is still employed to determine breed worthiness.

Some breeders have moved away from the breed test, and therein lies the controversy. Not all lines of GSD are of acceptable temperament to perform law enforcement work. Some lines, like West German Show Lines, are typically, but not always, Red & Black, so superficially, color can be confused as the issue.

[GSDLover84]

KZoppa: Thanks and I like the Blues too, but alas there don't seem to be any breeders anywhere near me working on them. I live in Texas and I'd pretty much drive anywhere in the South or as far as Colorado to find good ones, but the nearest seems to be the extreme NW corner of Kansas. As in, in the mountians. lol They are stunning dogs though.

W. Oliver: Really? Maybe these people I hear talking about how horrible it is to breed the more unusual colors/markings aren't the truly serious GSD folks because what I've read was pretty specific to the Diltues and Pandas and had nothing to do with anything important...at least anything I feel is truly important. I've seen some forums recently where people were bashing the concept. Even to the point of saying they HAD to be mixed breeds and the people breeding them were just trying to make money. Because, Heaven forbid someone just breed dogs they like because they like them. In the majority of breeds, Liver and Blue happen, correct? In Poodles, Blue is standardized (totally unfair) and is called "Silver". In Australian Shepherds, Liver is called "Red", as in Red Tri or Red Merle. The Standardized Wiemaraner color is Blue. Etc. It's all presumably the same two genes from breed to breed.

It's very nice to know that people really do see what's important. Conformation, personality, and ability are obviously the primary objective. Good stuff. Thanks.

I would like to know if there's any truth to this talk of health issues linked to the Dilutes? Or if there's certian lines that carry the problems? If so, anyone know which lines so I can avoid them like the plague?

[GSDSunshine]

The issue with the "unique" colors and patterns is not with the dogs themselves, but with the breeders that breed specifically for those traits.

You can have a very healthy German Shepherd that is a Blue, or liver, or panda, but when you consider how small the numbers are of them there, when a breeder limits him/herself to breeding only livers or only blues, then you stop focusing on the things that are important.

You want a breeder that focuses on a healthy robust, and well balanced dog. If one of the breeders that I respect ended up having a puppy that was a liver or blue, or shiloh (however rare that would be) I would take it in a heart beat....no more or less than any other healthy pup that have.

When you start focusing on color alone, you start having breeders that will breed 2 dogs together, not because they are great examples of the breed, or they have iron clad temperaments and great working drive. They haven't proven themselves breedworthy....they just happen to be 2 good looking blue german shepherds...

[GSDLover84]

W. Oliver: Oh oh oh...I'm sorry, but I gotta pick your brain since it seems so full and stuff. Whaddaya mean about the not good law enforcement type stuff? Are there any particular lines you'd recommend? Or any "type" you'd find better than another? I'm thinking calm, but ready to work whenever if such an animal really exists. I figure you don't want a police dog to try to eat everyone or to be nearly jumping out of his skin 24-7, but you'd want him alert and ready for to work whenever duty calls. Are there any particular lines better for such a thing than others? Or combinations of lines? I know it's also about training, but genetics play a big part, too. Nature vs Nurture bit and all.

Or if there's certian lines that carry the problems? For that matter...are there any lines of any kind that should be avoided?

I guess I don't just need law enforcement type dogs. I have a kid, other pets, livestock, and a daily life, too. I need dogs that will also be great pets when they're home and work hard when they're at work. Advice, please! I'm a virtual sponge.

[GSDLover84]

Originally Posted by GSDSunshine

The issue with the "unique" colors and patterns is not with the dogs themselves, but with the breeders that breed specifically for those traits.

You can have a very healthy German Shepherd that is a Blue, or liver, or panda, but when you consider how small the numbers are of them there, when a breeder limits him/herself to breeding only livers or only blues, then you stop focusing on the things that are important.

You want a breeder that focuses on a healthy robust, and well balanced dog. If one of the breeders that I respect ended up having a puppy that was a liver or blue, or shiloh (however rare that would be) I would take it in a heart beat....no more or less than any other healthy pup that have.

When you start focusing on color alone, you start having breeders that will breed 2 dogs together, not because they are great examples of the breed, or they have iron clad temperaments and great working drive. They haven't proven themselves breedworthy....they just happen to be 2 good looking blue german shepherds...

Yep, yep, yep. Gotcha. So some folks just aren't focusing on the important stuff and that's what worries other folks. Makes sense. I want the whole package. Like I said...I've always been drawn to marked and dilute-colored animals and if I could get that in a GSD I'd be over the moon, but I'd rather have a dependable partner than a less common color. I want both. I'm just not totally sure how to go about it and I wasn't sure if there was any merit to the talk of health issues associated with it. Don't want my dog itching and scratching from yucky skin stuff rather than biting the bad guy trying to take my head off. lol

[MaggieRoseLee]

Before you get any puppy/dog that you want to use for your job and in your department, I'd make sure I was working WITH my department. Their goals and expectations as well as experience with dogs. Their policy on getting dogs.

I had a friend who got a GSD puppy when he entered his police department also with the intent to have it be used as part of his job. Only to find out they only let officers have dogs that had been in the job for at least 5 years as an incentive and seniority thing. Their K-9 Officers got more pay!

Many agencies also only purchase and use partially trained dogs at specific places, then send their new K-9 Officer to that location to finalize the training.

So hate to see you get a dog specifically for K-9 and find out it won't work out. I know most LE Agencies in PA use dogs from working line breeders, Czech, West/East German lines so you'd NEVER see a liver or Panda coming from those lines. (well maybe a liver, but not a Panda).

Panda's are a 'new' breed with the breeder who first got them really working on keeping the color and using them as show NOT working lines. Phenom Shepherds - Home Chances of them having a suitable temperment for police work wouldn't be high cause that's not the breeders goal.

[W.Oliver]

Originally Posted by GSDLover84

Whaddaya mean about the not good law enforcement type stuff?

What I mean is that GSDs in law enforcement are typically from working lines.

[MaggieRoseLee]

GSDLover84 , you want a 'rare' color in working lines, then look at the blacks! They aren't really 'rare' but no one ever sees them unless they are familiar with working lines.

BEAUTIFUL dogs but not the color people are used to. Here's one of my favorites...