Conformation lines,work lines,BYB,?????

[cliffson1]

IMO, one of the biggest regressions the breed has made is the development of these "lines" of dogs that now allow a person to "only" look at a picture of a dog and identify the dog. This should not be ,imo. So my question to the list is what makes a dog a conformation dog? Is it good conformation or is it the line the dog comes from. Is a dog from supposedly conformation lines with a "G" rating, or missing testicle, or oversized, or collie head, a conformation dog if it is say black and red or is a sibling of the Grand Victor?
Is a working dog a dog that has proven itself as a top sport dog or service dog, or is a working dog a dog from the Czech/Sable/DDR lines?
And what constitutes a BYB dog? Is it a dog bred from a breeder that isn't reputable,(whatever that is), is it something that can be looked at and ascertained, is it from "work" lines or "conformation" lines?
This drives me crazy, and I would like to hear some of the reasons for this condition today in the breed.

[Shavy]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

IMO, one of the biggest regressions the breed has made is the development of these "lines" of dogs that now allow a person to "only" look at a picture of a dog and identify the dog. This should not be ,imo.

In any breed, you can distinguish a BYB dog from one that is well-bred. That's not GSD-specific and has nothing to do with "lines".

So my question to the list is what makes a dog a conformation dog? Is it good conformation or is it the line the dog comes from. Is a dog from supposedly conformation lines with a "G" rating, or missing testicle, or oversized, or collie head, a conformation dog if it is say black and red or is a sibling of the Grand Victor?

A dog is from conformation/show/high lines if the breeder(s) in that pedigree have been breeding for that specific purpose - to make a better conformation show dog. "A show dog" is generally understood to be a dog that is or could successfully be shown. There are plenty of pet dogs from show lines that aren't suitable for showing.

Is a working dog a dog that has proven itself as a top sport dog or service dog, or is a working dog a dog from the Czech/Sable/DDR lines?

A working lines dog is from lines where the dogs were worked or bred for work. While that usually comes from certain regions, if you had dogs that were American-bred for 5 generations with the realistic purpose of being worked, I'd consider those "working lines". "A working dog" is a dog that works, a dog that doesn't work is a pet from working lines. "A working dog" can also refer to any lines, or no lines at all, because "working" focuses on the ability, not the pedigree or even the breed.

And what constitutes a BYB dog? Is it a dog bred from a breeder that isn't reputable,(whatever that is), is it something that can be looked at and ascertained, is it from "work" lines or "conformation" lines?

A BYB dog is a dog bred irresponsibly; probably one that never should've been bred and who was bred for money, "cute puppies", the miracle of birth, or any other number of idiotic reasons. Yes, generally you can look at a BYB dog and tell that it's BYB, because it won't look the same as show lines and oftentimes not even like a working line dog. Remember that with working dogs, conformation determines function, so conformation is still relevant.

BYB dogs are usually not from any lines. They may have some titled dogs way back in the pedigree (oftentimes show lines, one to two champions all the way back), but rarely do they have parents or even grandparents that are titled in either work or show. They are just pets produced by someone who randomly bred two GSDs together. Nowadays BYBs are starting to get their hands on some "czech/DDR" dogs and breeding them, and those dogs may have more working dogs in their recent past, but I don't know that I'd call them "working lines" just because the BYB produced sable puppies.

This drives me crazy, and I would like to hear some of the reasons for this condition today in the breed.

In many performance breeds, you have a major dichotomy between the high/show lines and the working lines. You see this in border collies, huskies, labs (I wince every time I see a show "pigador") - pretty much any breed where you have two subsets of fanciers, those who work their dogs, and those who show them.

[cliffson1]

Shavy wrote;
Remember that with working dogs, conformation determines function, so conformation is still relevant.
Cliff asks,
Can you give me examples of work that requires conformation to function?
Thanks for your insights into this phenomena.

[Chicagocanine]

Originally Posted by Shavy

In many performance breeds, you have a major dichotomy between the high/show lines and the working lines. You see this in border collies, huskies, labs (I wince every time I see a show "pigador") - pretty much any breed where you have two subsets of fanciers, those who work their dogs, and those who show them.

That's true, that is VERY common in a lot of breeds.

[Catu]

At least here we have one thing less to worry, there are working lines (no ddr, czech, west german, holland, etc) and showlines (no german showlines and american showlines, just the first ones)

Since WL are no more than 2%, if not less, of the GSD population, the average public knows only one type, the black and red and that would be all there is, even BYB are blacks and red and everyone want Rex to have in the garden. Also WL are not only few, but most of them owned by a close group of freaks that for the most part knows each other (small country, almost a village), are very specific in why the want those ugly dogs and pffff... for some reason don't think the fun is in running in circles.

But we have the other problem, the different lines are out there it is only that 98-99% of the importation of new dogs came from the same bloodlines. so to say that in here there is no such thing as a separation of lines would be to put a blindfold over our eyes. What is worst, most breeders are not aware, have never heard that the black and red GSD os not the only GSD.

Personally, I have the following problem: My name is Catu and I am not a GSD person...

What! what I am doing here then?! Well... I am a working dog person, my first meeting with the GSD was AFTER I started in the world of dog training and SAR. In my philosophical moments my question is not what is happening to the GSD, it is if we need dog breeds at all. Pedigrees are useful, they provide information, but... do we need to put dogs into pigeonholes? Lets face it, different types of dogs had existed for thousands of years, but all the "breed" concept is only thing of this last century, it is a fashion that has lasted too long thanks to $$$$. I like the KNPV approach, dirty as it may be in other aspects, like buying FCI pedigrees.

I wonder if some day, surely not in my lifetime, all this eugenetic fashion will be a thing of the past.

[cliffson1]

Very interesting post, Catu. You certainly are not an elitist in your thinking.

[codmaster]

If we didn't have breeds with well defined characteristics defined in a standard, then how would you know what to expect when you bought a puppy?

Don't always get what we expect from the standard but at least it is a reasonable expectation given a reputable breeder.

Imagine if you were expecting a Golden temperament and ended up with a hard GSD? Or vice versa?

[Xeph]

then how would you know what to expect when you bought a puppy?

People breed dogs like the Blue Lacy, and could just as easily tell you what certain parents produce just as much as GSD breeders. And the Blue Lacy is only a type of dog, not a breed.

[Catu]

Originally Posted by codmaster

If we didn't have breeds with well defined characteristics defined in a standard, then how would you know what to expect when you bought a puppy?

Don't always get what we expect from the standard but at least it is a reasonable expectation given a reputable breeder.

Imagine if you were expecting a Golden temperament and ended up with a hard GSD? Or vice versa?

I will tell you how it would be in my Teletubby World of Fantasy.

Breeds could be like the actual concept of lines. It always would be breeders who want to maintain pure characteristics. Breeders who breed GSDs and only GSDs with the same look and temperament, just as we see today people who work hard to keep the Czech lines pure so the rest of us who only care for performance can have where to look at if we need that kind of dog and not only crosses of crosses. Same would be with Golden Retriever and the Chihuahua people, there is nothing wrong with that.

But if me, as a SAR handler, am looking for a dog with the nerve of the GSD and the drive of the Malinois there would be no God Law that would forbid me to get a mix of both types. Then someone may like what I have, but would like more retrieve drive and cross my kind of dog with a field Labrador retriever.

As I said in my previous post I'm not against registries and pedigrees, they hold too much useful information that can't be lost. But today it is too easy: It is is like a dog supermarket. You want pointy ears? get a dog from the GSD shelf, you want floppy ears? get a dog from the retriever shelves... or a petstore is not basically that? In my idealized world people would need to do their own homework, would need to look at the label of the product they want: the pedigree, and not only look for a bunch of acronyms and a few big names, but to know how much of each type of dog there is on the ancestors, how much linebred the dog is on each one. People could decide if they want to sacrifice type and get dogs with a variety of them on the pedigree to gain hybrid vigor or get a more pure type to raise their bet of having exactly what they want... but would be a choice, not something imposed by an agency, be it AKC or FCI.

And all that with a smiling sun in the background and bunnies hopping around...

[codmaster]

Catu,
"nerve of the GSD and the drive of the Malinois there would be no God Law that would forbid me to get a mix of both types"

You just stated the case for breeds very strongly above! GSD nerve and Mal drive - These are BREED characteristics and thus you do know where to look for the characteristics that you want! Well said! Thank you!