Should GSDs have Prey Drive?

[Ada_GSD]

Deleting text from post as this is a copy of another thread that got hijacked and this post wasn't part of that discussion. Can't delete the post itself as it is the first in the thread. Admin.

[atravis]

Originally Posted by Castlemaid

Here you go!!!

Elem. of Temperament

Best article I have ever seen discussing temperament. I would consider this mandatory reading for all GSD owners, and future GSD owners.

Breeders should be able to quote it backwards and forwards .

Ugg, I could not agree less with this article.

Namely with her apparent opinion of prey drive in this breed.
I once heard someone describe prey in GSDs as a disease.

I couldn't agree more.

GSDs were never meant to be cat-killing, critter chasing lunatics.

Her definition of Defensive drive is accurate to some degree. But this:
Assuming the dog has good, strong nerves and a reasonably high threshold, a dog with strong defense drive can be a good working dog.

Can? Excuse me?
Is it any wonder that many of the actual working dogs of today, the K9s, the PPDs, have absolutely no prey at all? Or at least VERY little?

Where is her explanation of fight drive? Of civil aggression/civil drive?
A good GSD doesn't give a rat's arse about chasing fluffy lures or traditional "prey" items. For sport, maybe. But for real work? Its man-focused or nothing. Prey is a determent to these dogs.

[Castlemaid]

Lex,

Interesting about prey drive and the working K9. I assume that you breed, train, and work the streets with these dogs? Because that is the first I have heard that prey drive is detrimental to a working dog and would love to hear how the driveless dog is trained and kept motivated to keep working.

[atravis]

Originally Posted by Castlemaid

Lex,

Interesting about prey drive and the working K9. I assume that you breed, train, and work the streets with these dogs? Because that is the first I have heard that prey drive is detrimental to a working dog and would love to hear how the driveless dog is trained and kept motivated to keep working.

Oh, I'm sorry, do YOU do these things?

Prey is detrimental for the very reason your woman writing this article says.

"A dog working only in prey lacks seriousness. They also focus on equipment, rather than on the agitator."

This comment would have had more merit, had she not burned the entire article with this statement:
"A GSD with low prey drive is a crime against nature."

A serious civil dog does not need to play games with his handler to stay motivated. The work IS the motivation. He doesn't get joy from being fed the sleeve a few times as a "reward". His reward is getting hold of whatever is behind that suit.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by Castlemaid

Lex,

Interesting about prey drive and the working K9. I assume that you breed, train, and work the streets with these dogs? Because that is the first I have heard that prey drive is detrimental to a working dog and would love to hear how the driveless dog is trained and kept motivated to keep working.

I don't do this currently, but I HAVE, in the past - primarily with PPD, and A. Travis is absolutely correct. The LAST thing a handler doing real life work wants is a prey driven dog.

[Chris Wild]

Originally Posted by atravis

Namely with her apparent opinion of prey drive in this breed.
I once heard someone describe prey in GSDs as a disease.

I couldn't agree more.

Baloney.

Prey drive is absolutely correct for this breed. GSD's *should* have prey drive. It should not be the only drive (and certainly not in protection) but it should not be lacking either.

Originally Posted by atravis

GSDs were never meant to be cat-killing, critter chasing lunatics.

True. But to say that the existance of prey drive = cat killing lunatics is ridiculous. Certainly this sort of dog exists. But it is not a function of prey drive that is the problem, but rather an overall tendency toward extremes and lack of balance.

I would say that the "disease" that affects this breed is just that: extremes and lack of balance. Not just with regard to drives but all temperament traits, structure, etc...

Originally Posted by atravis

Is it any wonder that many of the actual working dogs of today, the K9s, the PPDs, have absolutely no prey at all? Or at least VERY little?

Right. That's why so many K9s and military and PP dogs are Malinois. Because they certainly don't have any prey drive.

Prey is not a detriment to real protection work. It being the *only* drive of which the dog is capable, or an all consuming drive, or the only one accessed in training IS. But there is a big difference there.

Originally Posted by atravis

Where is her explanation of fight drive? Of civil aggression/civil drive? A good GSD doesn't give a rat's arse about chasing fluffy lures or traditional "prey" items. For sport, maybe. But for real work? Its man-focused or nothing. Prey is a determent to these dogs.

I do agree this is lacking in the article, and something I have always wish was addressed. However many working people don't make the distinction between aggression born of defense and that born of fight drive. They term both as "defense" and that is probably the case here. When in reality, reactive aggression (defense) and active aggression (fight) are two different things.

For real protection a dog must have defense and fight, absolutely. But that same dog also having prey drive is not a detriment if those other things are present, and the overall temperament and drives of the dog are well balanced.

And while protection is an important job for a GSD, and every GSD should have the ability to protect, it is not the end all and be all of GSD-dom. There are many other jobs the breed does and is supposed to be able to do, that DO require prey drive. Detector and search work being amongst those. Defense and fight aren't going to get you very far in sniffing out drugs and explosives or finding lost people in the woods.

[atravis]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

True. But to say that the existance of prey drive = cat killing lunatics is ridiculous. Certainly this sort of dog exists. But it is not a function of prey drive that is the problem, but rather an overall tendency toward extremes and lack of balance.

I would say that the "disease" that affects this breed is just that: extremes and lack of balance. Not just with regard to drives but all temperament traits, structure, etc...

And I agree with you- extremes are what is ultimately killing these dogs.

But one's definition of "extreme" is subjective.
"High" is "extreme" in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

Right. That's why so many K9s and military and PP dogs are Malinois. Because they certainly don't have any prey drive.

Prey is not a detriment to real protection work. It being the *only* drive of which the dog is capable, or an all consuming drive, or the only one accessed in training IS. But there is a big difference there.

I guess all those low prey, high fight/defense Czech dogs are just some kind of bad joke, right?

Here, let me ask you this:
You say prey isn't a detriment to real protection work.
Ok then, what GOOD is it? What does it do for the dog (besides lessening stress as people keep saying, though honestly just how "stressed" these dogs get is wholly a matter of how far the handler is willing to push the dog and how soon). How is it FUNCTIONAL.

A dog does not need prey to defend against a person trying to assault you on the street, or a person who breaks into your home.

Granted, some level of prey might be needed in K9 work, as most dogs do not act in direct defence of their handler. But however much may be needed in that should be considerably dwarfed by fight and civil aggression.

And while it is not the popular opinion with this breed, they CAN be worked in defense as a starting ground. People call these trainers lunatics, but they're out there doing it. Some are very successful at it... obviously they're doing something right if people keep going back to them.

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

I do agree this is lacking in the article, and something I have always wish was addressed. However many working people don't make the distinction between aggression born of defense and that born of fight drive. They term both as "defense" and that is probably the case here. When in reality, reactive aggression (defense) and active aggression (fight) are two different things.

For real protection a dog must have defense and fight, absolutely. But that same dog also having prey drive is not a detriment if those other things are present, and the overall temperament and drives of the dog are well balanced.

And while protection is an important job for a GSD, and every GSD should have the ability to protect, it is not the end all and be all of GSD-dom. There are many other jobs the breed does and is supposed to be able to do, that DO require prey drive. Detector and search work being amongst those. Defense and fight aren't going to get you very far in sniffing out drugs and explosives or finding lost people in the woods.

No, protection is not the be-all.
But if the only way these dogs can preform SAR work is to have "extreme" prey, then maybe we better start reevaluating our training methods.

I consider my DDR/Czech boy low-medium prey, high defense, and as he's started to mature, very high fight. I can hardly play tug with him anymore, as he drags me clean to the ground, and will NOT let up until I out him.

I suspect this is a dog who could do anything I set my mind to training him. He's coming along very nicely in tracking, awesome in protection work... and, ok, he could still use a little work in OB, but we're getting there.

The last time I took him to Sch, he nearly pulled the helper to the ground just doing drive building.

He's far too social to ever be a K9 (can't all be perfect), but I could see him making a nice family-level personal protection dog. And when his OB finally starts to improve (still got one more year to go!), I see him being a stellar Sch dog.

Baloney, though. No way a piddly little low-prey dog could do that

[Chris Wild]

Lex, I think you need to read my post again.

No where did I say that a real protection dog needs prey drive and couldn't be trained utilizing other drives.

What I said was that the existance of prey drive in such a dog is not a detrement and does not prevent the dog from performing that sort of work.

Huge difference.

You clearly stated that your feelings are that a GSD does not need prey drive and should not have prey drive and that if it is there it is a problem for protection work (and the family cat is doomed).

You also stated to prove your case that many real protection dogs do not have prey drive. While that is true, the term "many" is subjective, and no matter how you view it does not equate to most or as proof that prey drive is a bad thing. Especially when the actual reality is that most of the dogs doing this form of work DO have prey drive in pretty decent amounts.

Do they need it? No, not if the other drives are there. But they have it. And that is not problematic with a balanced dog and good training.

[Wildtim]

Originally Posted by atravis

A serious civil dog does not need to play games with his handler to stay motivated. The work IS the motivation. He doesn't get joy from being fed the sleeve a few times as a "reward". His reward is getting hold of whatever is behind that suit.

What a load of hooey.

In most dogs lacking prey the work isn't the motivation the fear of pain is what motivates them. Lacking prey motivators many trainers still resort to the ol' standby crank and yank to teach behavior and then since in the trained dog they don't use behavior reinforcers they claim the dog is working for them or motivated by the work. When in fact the motivating force behind the dogs behavior is fear of pain and the memory of the same.


A dog working in aggression doesn't necessarily want to hurt anyone either, their goal is often to dominate not to damage. They don't care about the equipment enough to want to try to get through it it is simply a tool the know to use in the fight for dominance.

[Wildtim]

Originally Posted by atravis

I guess all those low prey, high fight/defense Czech dogs are just some kind of bad joke, right?

Haven't met any check dogs I would consider low prey, at least not ones capable of any type of work other than couch warming, sorry.

Originally Posted by atravis

Here, let me ask you this:
You say prey isn't a detriment to real protection work.
Ok then, what GOOD is it? What does it do for the dog (besides lessening stress as people keep saying, though honestly just how "stressed" these dogs get is wholly a matter of how far the handler is willing to push the dog and how soon). How is it FUNCTIONAL.

What good is prey?

It is the basis for all of a dogs pursuit and killing behaviors, a dog that lacks prey will not engage fully with something as large as a man and certainly won't take the full crushing (killing?) grip he need to really cause serious damage to a bad guy.

Without prey a dog can not really fight, except in his own defense and without the prey motivators he would rather run in any case.

Originally Posted by atravis

A dog does not need prey to defend against a person trying to assault you on the street, or a person who breaks into your home.

Granted, some level of prey might be needed in K9 work, as most dogs do not act in direct defence of their handler. But however much may be needed in that should be considerably dwarfed by fight and civil aggression.

How do you think you establish strong fighting behaviors without a prey base? somewhere in the dog must be the instinct to kill the prey or a fight doesn't happen, this is rooted in the prey drive.

Originally Posted by atravis

And while it is not the popular opinion with this breed, they CAN be worked in defense as a starting ground. People call these trainers lunatics, but they're out there doing it. Some are very successful at it... obviously they're doing something right if people keep going back to them.

A dog can be started in defense and in many this is their strongest drive but without any kind of prey drive they will only engage if it is their only option. There are trainers who are successful at this method and they are sought out, but not by people who's dogs work. They are paid by people who force protection into their dogs either for profit or ego, not because it is best for the dog.

Originally Posted by atravis

No, protection is not the be-all.
But if the only way these dogs can preform SAR work is to have "extreme" prey, then maybe we better start reevaluating our training methods.

Who said "extreme" prey was needed for SAR, desirable in many cases as evidenced by the number of Mali's out there but not needed.

Originally Posted by atravis

I consider my DDR/Czech boy low-medium prey, high defense, and as he's started to mature, very high fight. I can hardly play tug with him anymore, as he drags me clean to the ground, and will NOT let up until I out him.

I've seen this behavior most often with a dog high in prey, or "extreme", whats your point.

Originally Posted by atravis

I suspect this is a dog who could do anything I set my mind to training him. He's coming along very nicely in tracking, awesome in protection work... and, ok, he could still use a little work in OB, but we're getting there.

The last time I took him to Sch, he nearly pulled the helper to the ground just doing drive building.

Again you are using a prey behavior to try and prove your dog woks without prey, one of us is confused?

Originally Posted by atravis

He's far too social to ever be a K9 (can't all be perfect), but I could see him making a nice family-level personal protection dog. And when his OB finally starts to improve (still got one more year to go!), I see him being a stellar Sch dog.

Baloney, though. No way a piddly little low-prey dog could do that

Now I know who's confused. I would doubt you actually have a low prey dog, especially given your stories about him.