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-   -   Straight-back GSDs.... (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/133877-straight-back-gsds.html)

Xeph 07-16-2010 09:50 AM

Quote:

Most working dogs do not have the sloping back ends that the show line dogs show us.
I've actually noticed in the last few years that many working lines have some rear now. Nowhere near overdone, but I personally think what I've been seeing is an improvement, and they look very good as they are now (and are still functional).

Samba 07-16-2010 10:15 AM

I think what his writings say tell a lot about the dissecting path the am show group took from the founding principles and approaches. They certainly were free to make such a move. I absolutely am not kidding when I say over the past 12 years I have heard the same things said within the show group.

And so, that is the general path taken. It is the breeding of show dogs primarily without focus on the entire package that originally constituted the foundation. Sure there are some in between with more varied goals, but generally speaking, there are breeding selections for showing. There was an early rejection of the German goals and methods. The breeding is for a "show dog" whose end goal is to show.

Now, I have to say at least this complete explanation by Denlinger is refreshing in its honesty. If I were able to speak with him (ok, seance), I am thinking he might tell me that an assessment of the dogs as show dogs rather than German Shepherds bred to the goals and standards of the original breed is absolutely correct. I don't think he would defend it or call the assessment "bashing". He seems very honest in that regard.

I believe that Cliff allluded to something that I agree with. It is not exactly right to sell these dogs on the coat tails of "THE German Shepherd". The public does not necessarily know all the differences in the breed.

I have had Am showline breeders tell me with real conviction that they have improved on the breed. I used to experience crossed eyes at this point. But, now, I think they might have some bragging rights within their context and perspective. The extreme, richly coated and deeply pigmented dog trotting with an elastic and suspended flying trot is quite a SHOW. That was the goal and great effort has gone into the creation of a dog to show in a left circle. I go there myself and even have shown a dog.

cliffson1 07-16-2010 12:23 PM

Samba,
Good post....it amazes me how you can understand what i say or mean and others think I'm bashing. There is a difference in what people want and have created, just that simple. And its different from the intent and purpose of the breed when created.

Doc 07-16-2010 12:30 PM

Cliffson1, I pm'd you.

Xeph 07-16-2010 03:04 PM

Cliff, I very much understand what you're saying, and I agree with lots of it. I see the differences between the two I have now, and am sure I'll see even more when I get the working line puppy.

My American puppy's temperament is not bad. She is showing to be very stable and actually has better control of her drives.

Is she high drive like Strauss? No. BUT she DOES like to work and does so very enthusiastically. She's a bit more nervy than he is, I can see that in a few of the interactions we've had with various things, though her recovery time is overall fantastic when she is startled, and "bad experiences" do not seem to leave a lasting impression on her.

cliffson1 07-16-2010 03:53 PM

You see Jackie, many people focus on drives in differentiating a real working German Shepherd and the new creation. Its not about drive its about nerve and hardness. There are many types of working lines today,(Czech, West European that can also be broken into Belgium, Holland, and Germany, and East German or DDR), and they have many outward expression traits in general. Some like the DDR dogs can be ultra handler sensitive, some West German lines have high social or active aggression, some like Belgium lines have over the top prey, some like the dogs participating in KNPV in Holland are very tough. The common thread among them that allows them to work is the nerve and hardness. Now hardness is not about how tough a dog is in terms of pain, hardness is the resilency of the dog to keep working, keep trying, not shut down, when faced with adversity or new strange stimuli. When my 4 month old puppy tries to jump in the truck and falls completely over backwards on the asphalt, the WILL to immediately try again is hardness. Many people are breeding dogs that this would have a lasting impression on the dog and the dog won't try again for months or maybe even shut down. This is why you don't see certain types of german shepherds in law enforcement, because the adversity sets them back toofar and too long to keep up with the class. This hardness is tied to NERVE. My 9 month old DDR female that herds is very very soft and handler sensitive. She could easily be trained to be therapy dog or seeing eye dog. Just plain sweet to everybody!!! Yet she is hard. She will go anywhere on any surface in any place confidently. When she faces adversity she trys again and again to conquer it. When challenged in the pen by a big ewe at 7 months her instinct kicked in and she backed the ewe down. This is from NERVE that is solid. Her nerve allowed her instinct to take over and handle the situation. People today have lines of dogs that have very little nerve, or "thin" nerves often causing the dog to hackle up at anything new or go into flight behavoir otherwise known as shyness. (Then their is usually some abuse story told to justify the shyness). This should not be!! I have a 6 month and 9 month puppy right now and wherever I take them they never hackle up because they are confident. This is the minimum that we should be breeding and THEN if you want to have over the top prey, social aggression, seeing eye dog, super structure, or whatever; you still have the foundation for a functional German shepherd. Without nerve strength, you have lost the nobility, the incorrutibleness, the BEAUTY of the breed in my honest opinion.
And it seems that the moderate dogs in structure of straight backs and moderate physical features often possess these features like the dogs of the past.

lhczth 07-16-2010 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffson1 (Post 1863567)
Without nerve strength, you have lost the nobility, the incorrutibleness, the BEAUTY of the breed in my honest opinion.

:thumbup: :groovy:

Catu 07-17-2010 05:51 PM

Beautiful post, Cliff!

codmaster 07-17-2010 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffson1 (Post 1863567)
............... Its not about drive its about nerve and hardness. .....................Now hardness is not about how tough a dog is in terms of pain, hardness is the resilency of the dog to keep working, keep trying, not shut down, when faced with adversity or new strange stimuli. ........................... Many people are breeding dogs that this would have a lasting impression on the dog and the dog won't try again for months or maybe even shut down. .......................People today have lines of dogs that have very little nerve, or "thin" nerves often causing the dog to hackle up at anything new or go into flight behavoir otherwise known as shyness. (Then their is usually some abuse story told to justify the shyness). .........................Without nerve strength, you have lost the nobility, the incorrutibleness, the BEAUTY of the breed in my honest opinion...........................

Excellent description!
Esp. about the excuses for shyness, and more esp. in little puppies as I see in a breeders class that I attend weekly. You would not believe the % of 3-5 mo puppies that will not come loping up to a friendly person but actually hide behind their owners legs! And everyone seems to think that is normal! At that age, Baron thought that EVERYONE he met should just love a little GSD puppy and would go charging 9if I let him) upto them.

I would only add the requirement of a reasonable threshhold(s) to cause the dog to respond protectively.

Samba 07-18-2010 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffson1 (Post 1863567)
And it seems that the moderate dogs in structure of straight backs and moderate physical features often possess these features like the dogs of the past.

I like to think about things like this possibility. Are there certain physical appearance genetics that are linked with more "internal" ones? It could be. In dog populations where working characteristics are held as the highest goal, a certain look often develops even though breed appearance conformity was not really the goal.


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