A few philosophical questions......

[W.Oliver]

Regardless of why, the GSD has evolved into two distinct groups, the working line and the show line. Certainly we can subdivide each, West German or Czech/DDR, and West German or American/Canadian, but for sake of discussion, let us focus on the macro, working & show, which is really where the question resides.

The organizational struggles, amongst the various breed groups, have everything to do with individual interpretation of what characteristics best represent the breed. If we strip away the politics, the struggle is really over unification…one breed. Which translates to one group as correct, and the other incorrect in their respective interpretations of what a GSD is?

Is it time to stop fighting for unification, and settle into separation? If so, who best represents the Working Shepherd Dog? Is that the RSV2000 and USA? Who best represents the Show Shepherd Dog? Is that the SV and GSDCA?

Is the next fight over who gets to retain the “German Shepherd Dog” name, almost as if it were a brand?

[Doc]

There should be a return to what pappa Max described as versitile dog - not subdivisions - but one dog that can work and be shown.

I don't care to classify into distinct "groups". A German shepherd was created to do both. "A master of none, but good at everything".

This hogwash about my dog can do this but doesn't do that is a bunch horse hockey. Greed and politics has ruined our breed.

Please don't try to convince me that we "need" to pick among the above mentioned categories. For if we do, we have done a great injustice to this breed.

The "true" German shepherd should be a dog that has the ability to do what ever task is placed in front of him - which includes working, showing, etc.

So to unify the house, go back to the historical root of this breed. Read and study and debate the words and knowledge of the founding fathers. I think, if done with an open mind, one will discover that the current split in this breed was/is built upon a house of cards and one that will not withstand the test of time.

Go back to the original Sch. "test" - is it the same test that the original German shepherds had to endure? When and why did herding get pushed to the back burner? And why can't a dog that is a versitile worker (working being defined as many different different activities, not just Sch.) be a show champion?

Have we encamped to the point of no return?

[Liesje]

I agree with Doc, we don't need to "pick" from these organizations. Those that truly value the breed already know what is correct and what should be acceptable. They don't and shouldn't need to be policed from the top down.

[Jason L]

Originally Posted By: DocWhen and why did herding get pushed to the back burner?

I'm really curious - when and why?

[W.Oliver]

Originally Posted By: DocThere should be a return to what pappa Max described as versitile dog - not subdivisions - but one dog that can work and be shown.

For the record, I believe the small hobby breeders who train, handle, and title (Herding/Schutzhund) their working line GSD best capture the spirit of what Max von Stephanitz had intended for the breed.

Originally Posted By: DocPlease don't try to convince me that we "need" to pick among the above mentioned categories. For if we do, we have done a great injustice to this breed.

I am not attempting to convince you of anything, nor was my intent to initiate a selection. I am simply making the observation that the damage has been done.

Originally Posted By: DocSo to unify the house, go back to the historical root of this breed. Read and study and debate the words and knowledge of the founding fathers. I think, if done with an open mind, one will discover that the current split in this breed was/is built upon a house of cards and one that will not withstand the test of time.

This is the essence of what I am asking....does anyone really think the house can be unified? Are you suggesting the keepers of the true spirit of the breed wait it out for "the test of time"? I would simply ask why?.....and here I would hold out the white shepherd line as a reasonable example. Would it be unreasonable to think the show shepherd line take an independent direction comparable to the white shepherd line, or conversely, under the roof of a unified house do we invite in the white shepherd? I would rather see the working line shepherd break away and distill the truth independantly. Let the rest do as they please.

Originally Posted By: DocHave we encamped to the point of no return?

Here I have to access a 15 yard penalty for simply rephrasing my question. (admittedly, I enjoy your wordsmithing) I do think we are at a point of no return, and I think a divergence could evolve. If that is the case, could you see the SV/GSDCA going off in a show line direction and the RSV2000/USA going off into a working line direction? I know, I know, reference your quote below.......

Originally Posted By: DocGreed and politics has ruined our breed.

Very interested in your thoughts.........

[W.Oliver]

Post Script......

I have loved an Americian line for 10 years that was frightened by her own shadow, God rest her soul. I have spent the last two years training a wonderful West German show line....and soon, I will be the proud Papa of a Wildhaus working line ("I" Litter). The longer I train with GSDs the more I come to understand, I didn't know what I didn't know!!!!

[Liesje]

This split is not unique to our breed. Not that it justifies it at all, but sometimes I think it's just a better use of time and resources for true fanciers, hobby breeders that really know and work their dogs to keep doing what they are doing rather than try to change other peoples' minds. I go to Seiger Shows and the vast majority of the people there don't seem to have *any* problem with the way their dogs look or perform (or total lack thereof). Sad.

[W.Oliver]

Originally Posted By: LiesjeI think it's just a better use of time and resources for true fanciers, hobby breeders that really know and work their dogs to keep doing what they are doing rather than try to change other peoples' minds.

I agree completely. That is really my point, I don't think there is any ability to change peoples' minds.....and if we recognize that, would it be more productive to pick-up our marbles and go home? Which begs the question....where is home for working lines? Is that RSV2000, or maybe USA?

[cliffson1]

The problem is money, asthectic beauty, and breeders who know little of what the breed should be. (When I say know I don't mean having read...that's a lazy person's knowledge and inadequate.) The German Shepherd is a working dog...right???....well if you can't train a dog you have limited knowledge of the capabilities/abilities of the breed. Therefore, you will accept almost anything on this front(working),...after time and generations the dog will no longer work as a result. C'mon people...you think Labrador breeding can flourish in the desert??
The other piece is people breeding for what "they Like". If 70% of the German shepherds in the world are black and tan/red, and black and red/tan is subordinate to sable....then figure it out people. When man alters the balance of natural chemistry this much, bad usually results. The breed is a working breed, most of the remaining working dogs are sable, HELLO!!!, this isn't hard to figure out. But people don't care about the breed, they care about personal preferences, (croups, angulation, color, tail touches the ground so pretty, look at him move!!! as he runs for the exit gate to get out of the ring if he could).
Wayne, it a good philosophical topic, but frankly people cant subordinate their preferences to have a meaningful discussion about what should be done. They wouldn't have any toes left from being stepped on so much!JMO

[Doc]

All current organizations should take a back seat to a "New" German shepherd organization. I was taught many years ago that when organizations change course from their original mission, failure and rebellion is bound to follow. If you want to recreate the German shepherd to what is was suppose to be - get rid of all the current, politically corupt, money hungry, uneducated directors, and return to the original mission of the SV. But keep in mind the lessons that have been learned over the 100 years of history.

Read and debate why Max went to Barvaria for more substantial dogs. Investigate the battles that waged between the other members of the early SV. People today have no clue, and do not want to study, what the true German shepherd was all about.

As long as it is Black and red, by God it's a German shepherd worthy of titles. Where are the sables dogs Ciff mentioned? What happened to the German shepherd that could herd from sun up to sun down and awake the next morning and do it again day after day - then go to a show and win best of breed? They have been replace by trendy breeding and an uneducated buyer and judges that have their hand out.

So I say, tell the current organizations to pick up their marbles and get lost in order that the true German shepherd dog can survive. Their rule has ruined of breed.

Philosophically speaking of course ...