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Old 09-01-2009, 02:21 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

Val I am not a Sch person either. But having seen that dog clearly afraid was pretty obvious to me too. even to the co-worker looking over my shoulder who does not even have a dog.

Very sad. i too love the look of the showline but I am seeing more adn more with poor temper. I am really leaning toward a working line next time. I also know when I wnat the next pup but will adjust based on the breeding I want instead of when I want the dog like I did with Havoc. That is not a diss on Havoc(who is agreat showline dog) or his breeder.
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:09 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

Wow, that video is truly cringe-worthy. I think my rescued GSD mutt can do better ...

Quote:
Originally Posted By: LiesjeI was just watching a video of a big, (IMO) fat GSD doing the same thing and even to my inexperienced eyes I could see that even though not in top physical condition, he was really going at it, committed to the bite, and once he locked on the sleeve his grip did not falter.
Lol, I'm getting a pup in November and your line reminds me of pictures and videos I have seen of the sire.

http://www.daelenberghutte.be/zaskp.htm

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Old 09-01-2009, 03:21 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

Not defending just wondering:

Is it possible that some of the dogs just had an off day. Hey they don't care if it is the biggest GSD show, they are still dogs.

Is it possible that on some dogs the training was too hard - too fast. You don't see showline people holding off and letting their dogs mature mentally like you see with many working lines.

Is it possible that the economy is hurting puppy and dog sales and some breeders are putting less time training and working?

From one video you can't tell me the answers to the questions can you honestly?

Do I think that some Showlines breeders are on a slippery slope, yes. Are there breeders in Germany drive but the Euro, yes. Are there some breeders in Germany who aren't on the slippery slope that have nice dogs that are not VA.
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:33 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

Jason, You are getting a Zasco pup? I am SO jealous I can't even speak! (I REALLY like that dog for some reason. HAve for a while now.)
I just LOVE his long bite. He hits like a freight train! None of the running down the field then slamming on the brakes before launching onto the sleeve like so many other dogs do. (And a lot of those dogs are high scoring dogs!)

Who are you getting your pup from?
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:37 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

Quote:
Quote:Tranks Tracy, so then maybe I am wrong, a dirty grip is the dog mouthing the sleeve and not a continious grip?

See I told you I was uneducated.
Regarding grips; there is a reason they are important and it says more about the dog than how much he wants the "prey item". I am posting my response from another list where the question about the hardness of the dog's grip in herding was discussed. The question was whether a dog's grip in hearding can ever be too hard. Maybe this will help explain why those in the know look at this aspect so hard:

Quote:
Quote: I can't answer that from a herding standpoint but I think I can as a helper/agitator. I have owned and worked dogs with tremendous grips. The best ones I have worked were the ones who would escalate the power of their grip depending on what the helper is doing. You always want a dog who comes on the sleeve full and hard but when I say hard I guess what I am referring to is a grip that is firm like a vice. The dog gets on the sleeve and it is that way immediately. You feel not even the tiniest adjustment and can feel the pressure thru the sleeve. These dogs seem to "know" they have control with this grip and therefore do not "try" another one or shift to see if maybe THAT will work better. They are so confident, again, they seem to know nothing else is needed . No thrashing to try to get the upper hand, no punching into the helper...just that really powerful grip. However, if you turn to fight the dog, they will bite down harder and maybe torque the sleeve once to establish that they are still in control. These "good dogs" that I am talking about also do not get rattled or over excited. They remain composed and seem to do all the right things whether the helper is fighting and driving the dog or trying to escape. They escalate to just the right level although never without power.
Many of the dogs I worked and am working currently have herding lines a bit closer in the pedigree and these are the behaviors I see in these dogs. I would think this kind of grip and behavior is desirable for herding and I am pretty sure I read that here.

The undesirable dogs , IMO, are the ones who come onto the sleeve with a really hard grip but then you can feel the pressure come and go for no real apparent reason. I always want to question the nerves when I see this and I do see it more in the dogs that are excitable. They don't seem to understand that their grip can control the helper and they therefore shift it in what I consider, an attempt to find one that does. They do this too quickly IMO. Why does the dog move to a different grip when there is no reason for it. The other thing they do is fight with the man everywhere, whether the helper is confronting the dog or turned away in a flight position the dog is always thrashing the sleeve. I find this behavior not at all appealing, ( means to me the dog lacks confidence), and it will lead to problems with control and outting later on. I would also think this would not be a good dog for herding since he would damage the sheep."
I was not talking about show lines in that post, I was talking about dogs who have the drive and ability to do protection. However, I think you can read that and then get an idea of how wrong things have gone with the show dogs and why the grips are like they are, (even in the dogs that stay on the sleeve), and what triggers some of the other behaviors they are doing .
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:37 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

Is it possible that some just had a bad day, I guess anything is possible.

BUT of the first 30 dogs to go, 11 FAILED! That is close to half. I find it hard to beleive that THAT many dogs had a "bad day" on the SAME DAY.
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:38 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

LOL Anne! I'd volunteer for the 2 x 4 to the judges' head....

Here is a link I posted on another (associated) thread on this Board. It's for those people who will appreciate what a real courage test bite looks like (and as someone said elsewhere, if you compare it to the travesty at the Sieger show are you even looking at the same breed?) These are the dogs of the 2007 Weltmeisterschaft...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_9s8KArXM

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Old 09-01-2009, 03:41 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerNot defending just wondering:

Is it possible that some of the dogs just had an off day. Hey they don't care if it is the biggest GSD show, they are still dogs.
I can't answer the other questions, but this is definitely NOT "JUST" an off day. No way, no how. This was pathetic. So far beyond pathetic that I felt really really bad for the dogs that had way too much put on them. How much pressure was applied before I don't know but the dogs couldn't handle it..... It makes me sad for the breed and for the individual dogs and sad that these dogs were entered HOPING that they "might" pull it off. It makes me mad at the owners and trainers and the JUDGES who allow this to continue. But, mostly just sad for the poor confused, pressured, cowering dogs. Its wrong just plain wrong to throw dogs into situations that are too much for them to handle.
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:49 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

That was just sad.

Looking at this video, I think I would have a pretty good chance taking my Abby, who has little interest in the sleeve (but can be wound up enough to get a bite) and get a SchHIII on her under those judges and alongside those dogs. She would not do much worse than most of the dogs in this video, at any rate.
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:49 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Fat Lady has begun to sing

Quote:
Quote: But, mostly just sad for the poor confused, pressured, cowering dogs. Its wrong just plain wrong to throw dogs into situations that are too much for them to handle.
I certainly agree and I posted a similar response on the dreaded "Green Board" earlier today saying just that.

I used to find what was happening simply disgusting but things have now sunk to a new low....(who would have ever thought THAT could happen?).....where the dogs are REALLY paying the price for the behavior of these IDIOTS! Sorry, that is what they are. Those people are lucky I was not standing at the gate as they made their exit.
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