line breeding and genetic washout. - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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line breeding and genetic washout.

Let me preface this thread with " I have no desire to now or ever breed dogs. However, I am sure that at some point I will be buying another puppy. And this info seems to contradict itself. I have heard and read that after 3 generations the genetics are washed out or have no relevance to the dog at hand. So with that info. Why line breed 5-5, 4-5 3-5, etc... what difference would that make on a litter. to line breed 1-2, 1-3, 2-3, etc... should only be done by a knowledgeable breeder with a direct purpose behind it. I understand that aspect. But, if genes are washed out why even worry about anything linebred past 3 generations. Can a dog 4 or 5 generations back have an impact on a litter? And if so does line breeding amplify a diluted scenario.
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 05:24 PM
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Many dogs are common in a pedigree, so a 5-5 is not what is 'sought after' but what occurs when pedigrees are blended. I think many breeders use popular dogs and of course there are those dogs that have the well known names on both sides, and line breeding is a given.

I have seen similar characteristics in my male and other dogs that share his great grandsire...but it also may be attributed to the breeders goals of more serious type in the breeding match, not so much the dog a few generations back.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 11:26 AM
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First, the difference between Inbreeding and Line Breeding:

Inbreeding is breeding Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Grandfather to Granddaughter or Grandmother to Grandson. (More commonly what we would consider incest in people.) It is used to bring out the good, but because of how genetics works, it will also bring all of the bad out as well. Most consider it very risky for health issues.

Line Breeding is the third generation or beyond. It is used to get certain characteristics, or to improve on something that dog was known for producing. Some dogs are know for improving hips, etc...

The thing with genetics is that it can come down from several generations back and show up out of the blue. That's why it's important to know the history about dogs, and what they have or have not produced.

I personally prefer to not have any line breeding in the first 5 generations or what is considered an out cross. Most likely there is still some line breeding if you go back further than 5 generations. Have done a 3-4 line breeding on a female (most are typically done on males) and am happy with the drives, type and temperaments of my girl that I kept, my daughter's, and the owner of the sire took a girl.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnm View Post
First, the difference between Inbreeding and Line Breeding:

Inbreeding is breeding Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Grandfather to Granddaughter or Grandmother to Grandson. (More commonly what we would consider incest in people.) It is used to bring out the good, but because of how genetics works, it will also bring all of the bad out as well. Most consider it very risky for health issues.

Line Breeding is the third generation or beyond. It is used to get certain characteristics, or to improve on something that dog was known for producing. Some dogs are know for improving hips, etc...

The thing with genetics is that it can come down from several generations back and show up out of the blue. That's why it's important to know the history about dogs, and what they have or have not produced.

I personally prefer to not have any line breeding in the first 5 generations or what is considered an out cross. Most likely there is still some line breeding if you go back further than 5 generations. Have done a 3-4 line breeding on a female (most are typically done on males) and am happy with the drives, type and temperaments of my girl that I kept, my daughter's, and the owner of the sire took a girl.
That makes sense. But, what about those that say that without line breeding pups are a crap shoot. Genetics could be anything.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 11:15 PM
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If you don't know the traits/characteristics and their dominance or recessiveness, it really doesn't matter if you linebred or inbreed, it will still be crapshoot. The only way linebreeding, or inbreeding, or outcrossing is really useful is if you have indepth knowledge and understanding of the traits/characteristics of the dogs in the pedigree.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnm View Post
First, the difference between Inbreeding and Line Breeding:

Inbreeding is breeding Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Grandfather to Granddaughter or Grandmother to Grandson. (More commonly what we would consider incest in people.) It is used to bring out the good, but because of how genetics works, it will also bring all of the bad out as well. Most consider it very risky for health issues.

Line Breeding is the third generation or beyond. It is used to get certain characteristics, or to improve on something that dog was known for producing. Some dogs are know for improving hips, etc...

The thing with genetics is that it can come down from several generations back and show up out of the blue. That's why it's important to know the history about dogs, and what they have or have not produced.

I personally prefer to not have any line breeding in the first 5 generations or what is considered an out cross. Most likely there is still some line breeding if you go back further than 5 generations. Have done a 3-4 line breeding on a female (most are typically done on males) and am happy with the drives, type and temperaments of my girl that I kept, my daughter's, and the owner of the sire took a girl.
Very informative and it would seem common sense. If nothing else, a breeder resolved to breeding in- line so to speak might consider employing a mathematician to develop an algorithm of some kind in an attempt to minimize the risk.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 04:50 AM
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Breeding is so much more complicated than portrayed by some of the posts. Notwithstanding, the need to know the characteristics of the dogs or lines in a pedigree, even the algorithm is more complicated than it appears.
Example: If you take two linebreedings that are say 3-3, ( which means the same dog is in second generation of each parent), the projected result just based on this aspect,(3-3), can be vastly different. If the dog being linebred on is not linebred themself ( an outcross), then the impact of other dogs in first two generations will have large impact along with dog that is linebred on. BUT, if the dog linebred on is say inbred 2-2, then the impact of the dog constituting the 3-3 original linebreeding will dominate the breeding.
So, seeing a dog is linebred on 3-3 is just tip of iceberg in breeding.
Hope this makes sense to nonbreeders and novice breeders.....serious breeders should thoroughly understand this.
So really you not only have to know the characteristics of the dogs in a pedigree, BUT also the breeding( in,line,or out) of the dogs both that are linebred on and the dogs that aren't linebred on.
When you have a grasp on all of these factors, pedigree analysis isn't as hocus pocus as some people think who only surf the surface.

Last edited by cliffson1; 02-17-2017 at 04:55 AM.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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But wouldn't the sire and dam have the most impact or influence on a litter than say a 3-3 linebreed. That was itself linebred.
Or another way to look at it. Take one of Ciro jivo's offspring. Ammo for example. Idk His whole story. He is with a breeder now who probably isn't gonna title him. I am sure he is a fine dog. but for sake of this argument let's say that he was a total wash. No drives, bad nerves, weak bite. Breed him with a dam with equally impressive pedigree but she's also a wash. Weak all around. No linebreeding. The parents weakness would dominate the pups over the impressive pedigrees.
Those same two dogs but linebred on say 3-3 which is also a linebred dog then those pups would have a better chance of getting the strong characteristics of the lineage. Or do the weak parents still dominate the litter.
Hope all that makes sense.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 06:24 AM
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sorry i know nothing about breeding or lines. my dog's sire side seems weird to me. people usually have 4 different grandparents. my dog's sire has the same grandparent on both sides. how bad is that if at all?

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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarfish View Post
sorry i know nothing about breeding or lines. my dog's sire side seems weird to me. people usually have 4 different grandparents. my dog's sire has the same grandparent on both sides. how bad is that if at all?


this is a 2-2 linebreeding - or actually inbreeding....I see this show up in many pet breeders who dont know or care - just breed what they have to make pups to make money....it was also done way back in the day for showing - andthe theory of producing type.. getting out a pedigree from teh 1960s on my first GSD, whose lineage included Dopplet-Tay, a big show kennel at the time, I saw the same thing! But today, it is only used by really really knowledgeable people who have a goal and know how to achieve it or by BYB who just breed because they can.

I am looking at a 2-3 down the road.....both dogs are of my breeding, my lines and I know the dogs and families well....both are very very healthy dogs and exhibit the character and behaviors and clearheadedness I want....both are super companions while being high drive in work with great grips and work behaviors.


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