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Dark sable coats

19K views 70 replies 20 participants last post by  mharrisonjr26 
#1 ·
I understand that it's very common to see German working lines with dark sable coats, including my male, but has anyone seen a dark sable coat on an American show line/pet line GSD? Whenever I see one with this coat, I immediately assume that the dog is from German lines. Maybe I assumed wrong?
 
#3 ·
I think it's becoming more and more possible that a Sable on the street is a mix of show line, dark Sable is becoming increasingly popular (I've seen several around me lately), a lot of byb's are throwing a Sable into their lines to cater to the shift in coat preference. Just what I've been noticing. My previous us GSD came from a byb that had several "dark sables" that were American lines, that she bred to American lines and German show lines. It was one of her big selling points.
 
#4 ·
Am pet lines are usually a mixed up bag of lines so getting a dark sable is very possible, but hard to trace pedigree because many who breed the pet lines don't have papers or pedigrees for the dogs they breed. Am show lines on the other hand~I doubt you'll see any dark sables if they are all Am showline.
 
#5 ·
Am show lines seem to be a lighter, patterned reddish sable usually. I don't think I've ever seen a really dark Am show line sable in person.
 
#8 ·
If you see an ASL sable its probably a patterned one and won't be that dark. The reason is that the black/tan is preferred and therefore is bred for. It's very very difficult to get the sable coat out of your breeding program once you allow it in, and since its much more difficult to get a championship on a sable (even with proper conformation) many breeders don't use them in their programs.

The darker the dog, the easier it is to see their faults, which is why you don't see that many blacks as well.

As for pet lines...you probably see plenty just don't know it. Dark sables are becoming popular and are advertised as working lines. Many people get them from breeders that don't work them and don't prove them, but still call them working lines, so those people keep calling them working lines, even though they might've been mixed with something else.
 
#9 ·
I have seen dark sable American show line dogs. "American" breeders didn't have the disdain for sables that the WGSL breeders did . One I can remember goes back to the early 80's , a Sundance Kid son , Rohan's Reaction . I owned one - a Sanhedrin bred female "Rosy" (who looked like a bi colour red sable )
 
#12 ·
I actually met a dark sable working Australian line male (entire) recently. He was a very very good looking dog, although high maintenance for the owner, his prey drive is massive and she has trained a Lab to UDX and is finding his lack of focus a problem with what she wants to do with him. Not sure whether his issues in obedience training/trialling have anything to do with the fact he is working rather than show?
 
#13 ·
Lack of focus is a genetic thing. I've met a few dogs with drive out the you know what but they don't have any food drive or tug drive so its very hard to get them focused on doing what the handler wants them to do. They'll do it without a problem, but getting them to realize that's what you want them to do when you say it is very difficult. This is something that I see in show lines as well...they'll just generally have less drive so the absence of focus isn't as noticeable because the dog isn't all over the place doing things, its just sitting by the owner. Just as difficult to train IMO.

And great...30 years ago there were sable winners in the show ring. That's not today. I'm sure there are plenty of sable AKC champions, but what I wrote comes straight from the mouth of an ASL breeder that consistently produces champion dogs. He also had a sable champion in the early/mid 90's, said it was a great dog, produced very nice dogs, but very difficult to champion in a small amount of shows.

Remember all, a championship is attainable, just depends on how many shows you want to go to and how much money you want to spend. It's much more effective to have a dog that can finish in one weekend, than a dog that needs to be shown at multiple shows a year until it finally shows against lesser competition.
 
#15 ·
And great...30 years ago there were sable winners in the show ring. That's not today. I'm sure there are plenty of sable AKC champions, but what I wrote comes straight from the mouth of an ASL breeder that consistently produces champion dogs. He also had a sable champion in the early/mid 90's, said it was a great dog, produced very nice dogs, but very difficult to champion in a small amount of shows.
As I've said many times before, we have lots of nice sable dogs showing around here. One of my good friends has a sable AKC Grand Champion. In fact I have several friends right now that have sable dogs in the ring, that are getting points. But no one that I know, not even the top handlers around here, are finishing a GSD in a weekend.



Remember all, a championship is attainable, just depends on how many shows you want to go to and how much money you want to spend. It's much more effective to have a dog that can finish in one weekend, than a dog that needs to be shown at multiple shows a year until it finally shows against lesser competition.
Not every dog is going to finish. I don't care how many shows you go to, and how much money you spend, you still have to get two majors (plus singles). I show wherever the numbers are, and sometimes I show against average dogs and sometimes I show against some really nice dogs. And sometimes we beat those really nice dogs. Yes, it would be nice and cost effective to get three 5 point majors in a weekend and finish my dog, but finding a show with entries that big is tough. I did recently go to a 4 day show in Louisiana that had majors every day. My girl took the 4 point major the first day, and ended the show with a major reserve on the last day. I would have loved to have gotten the major that last day and finished her, but it didn't happen. So, I enter shows, and see if any are majors...
 
#14 · (Edited)
Re-read my post, I should clarify, it sounds like I said the sables from the byb were pure "american line." They were a mix, predominantly American line, with a sable "whatever" dog thrown in. OP, I think it is wrong to assume that any sable on the street is of German working lines, especially with the flavor of the week being "dark/black sables." I've become pretty pessimistic that I usually start out assuming the dog is from a byb, until I talk to the owner...I know that's terrible, there are just a lot of breeders in my area breeding for "sable" and the pedigree is an afterthought, a complete mis-mash of mostly show, with some "working" lines thrown in for color. Of course they are just catering to the market the pet community has created, which is "I want a sable...that's really all I care about...oh, and that it's good with kids I guess...I also want him to be 120+ pounds." lol, Sorry, I have a cold and I'm grumpy.

I DO think that 99.9999% of PURE showline pedigrees, are black/tan or black/red....maybe with some patterned sables thrown in here and there. As Carm has shown, there are a couple sables from way back in the day, but I think black and tan is the predominant coloration in the "pure" showlines. I just don't think much of what you see on the streets or in pet homes, is "pure" anything.
 
#17 ·
Both patterned sables and just sables. Mostly light. I've never seen the dark sable that is so popular these days.

Mostly dogs colored like Leroy Brown.
 
#18 ·
I've only been showing my dogs for 3 years, and I always see sables in the ring.
 
#19 ·
Thank you all for the replies. I was just curious, something that has been on my mind for a while. I've seen light sables and patterned sables in ASL dogs. I've just never seen anything darker.
Though, I do believe that I recall a dark sable dog from the breeder I got Harley from ("pet lines"). Thanks for the insight!
 
#21 ·
I guess I should have qualified my statement...In the past 7 years or so, the only ASL sables I've seen in the ring were lighter sables. I have seen one ASL "regular" sable at a club meeting, the dog was a lot like the last dog Jackie posted. Not light, but not really what I'd call a dark sable either (not that it matters). The sables I've seen in the ring that were darker or what I'd call dark were working lines. All the full WGSL sables I've seen were patterned red sables.
 
#22 ·
"If you see an ASL sable its probably a patterned one and won't be that dark"
don't agree - not what I saw when I was handling
nor with this " The reason is that the black/tan is preferred and therefore is bred for."
the American show line breeders never had the agenda for colour , so you have blacks, bi-colours, black and tans and sables --
This has no basis at all "It's very very difficult to get the sable coat out of your breeding program once you allow it in". Since sable is a dominant gene , either parent needs to be sable. If you don't want sable , then only breed those progeny which are NOT sable. Only breed the black and tans . Simple. No surprises.

"its much more difficult to get a championship on a sable (even with proper conformation) " -- totally not true . Not AMERICAN show line breeders. Not when you have (as an example) Ch. Lor-Lockes Tatta of Fran Jo , 1974 USA and Canadian Grand Victrix , clearly a sable .
There is no conformation title greater than that in American show line competition.

Acquaint yourself with one of the all time great producing "American" dogs KORY WALDESRUH and his siblings

Korry of Waldesruh and his legacy , including Select Champion Ravenhaus Noah , CH Wynthea's Jonn


These dogs , all, at a time when WGSL had long become fanatic about black and red , no sables in sight.

Show me one American bred show line dog that was denied a title because of his colour being sable.

On the other hand I can show you a sable that should have placed higher , VA2 Timo vom Berrekasten , who was booed when placed in first positon (Fred Lanting report) 2X VA2 VA1(A) Timo vom Berrekasten

when west German show lines have been generations of black and reds , sable disappeared , sable a dominant gene, you can not have
"All the full WGSL sables I've seen were patterned red sables."

what you are seeing and calling sable are dogs with fading pigment .
 
#23 ·
"If you see an ASL sable its probably a patterned one and won't be that dark"
don't agree - not what I saw when I was handling
nor with this " The reason is that the black/tan is preferred and therefore is bred for."
the American show line breeders never had the agenda for colour , so you have blacks, bi-colours, black and tans and sables --
This has no basis at all "It's very very difficult to get the sable coat out of your breeding program once you allow it in". Since sable is a dominant gene , either parent needs to be sable. If you don't want sable , then only breed those progeny which are NOT sable. Only breed the black and tans . Simple. No surprises.

"its much more difficult to get a championship on a sable (even with proper conformation) " -- totally not true . Not AMERICAN show line breeders. Not when you have (as an example) Ch. Lor-Lockes Tatta of Fran Jo , 1974 USA and Canadian Grand Victrix , clearly a sable .
There is no conformation title greater than that in American show line competition.
When was the last time you handled?

And thank you for bringing a dog from 1974 into the discussion. That's clearly "today."
 
#26 ·
I currently show in Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Kansas and Missouri. I see sables every time I show. And yes they are the lighter sables of the ASL, because that is what the ASL sables are. Frankly most ASL breeders aren't crossing their dogs with the working lines, so you aren't going to see more dark sable crop up.

I don't know anyone that is breeding for color, or away from a color. Everyone wants good dark pigment, and doesn't want a washed out looking dog. Every GSD in the ring is not a black and tan. I show against solid black, bi-color, sable, the very occasional black and red. I'd take a sable in a heartbeat to show. There are sables all over the place in the pedigrees of my ASL show dogs. Carly's grandsire and great grandsire (the great Leroy Brown) were sables, as well as many of the bitches on her dam's side. My breeder has shown sables, has finished sables, has bred sables, loves sables, just doesn't have sables right now.

Hey Jackie! Are you seeing a different thing in your part of the country?
 
#27 ·
there were some very successful , very dark sables coming out of von Trommels -- a kennel that I admired and followed https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=508682-trommels-ivan-of-berlindale

Interested because of his use of Bodo Grafental.
His dogs were used by guide dog breeding programmes.

I knew Han of the Dutch Hill kennels in Manitoba who used von Trommel dogs , owning Trommel's Iwan Dutch Hill , dark sable , Champion, and his son https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=602089-dutch-hills-encore

I sent a female to him to breed - sort of a last chance to get that close to some of those old DDR genetics.

that brings us to about 2005

this "And thank you for bringing a dog from 1974 into the discussion" regardless what you said could not be done was DONE , can't go better than this .
 
#28 ·
Xeph, the second dog you posted is Eros, I LOVED that dog.
I was raised around strictly ASL gsds and there are quite a few sables that are shown. I do not know of any breeder that avoids using sables in their lines - it is more about conformation.
Eros - eros 1999 Futurity Victor and did very well in his show career
baby Gibbs Kaixstella took best male baby puppy at the GSDCA nationals 2013
Kat - katara she has done exceptionally well in the show ring, and is still a baby
These are just a few, all from the same web page and what I could easily find in 5 minutes on my lunch break. Yes there are more black and tan showlines but at this years national there was a TON of black dogs, a few sables and some bicolours.
 
#31 · (Edited)
you should be seeing way more of them in the American show ring
And what do you base this on? The fact that sable is a DOMINANT gene makes it EASY to breed out or "avoid". There are plenty of sables that show in my area, including a beautiful dark sable coated bitch that has a couple of points already.

baby Gibbs Kaixstella took best male baby puppy at the GSDCA nationals 2013
I think you mean GSDCC :)

I've been looking for a sable boy to breed to Wesson. My issue isn't finding a sable dog...it's finding a sable dog that right for my bitch.

Darker sables are definitely more than possible. Are you ever going to get a BLACK sable from ASLs? No. But you can get more than light patterned sables.

Here's another one


And there are more going farther back. That said, it can be hard to tell because the pictures are black and white/greyscale
 
#33 ·
I don't like the way dogs are stacked like the above. It really isn't flattering at all. There is no muscletone~ other than the second photo, that dog looks in good working shape.

Even if the dog shows ribs(lean) it just looks like a fluffy loose skinned dog with a small head in comparison to the chest.
 
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