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Old 02-07-2013, 12:00 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I remember reading a thread on PDB where someone mentioned the fact that the lines that produce really strong dogs with great working temperament can have a high chance of hip issues if you take into account the ZW score.

After some research I see it is true. Peko Haus, Korbelbach, Haus Pixner, Konigshohle... When looking at ZW scores many are in the 90's and 100's.
Interesting as these kennels are known for producing tough dogs with excellent nerve and workability. IMO I rather take all the other traits and take a gamble on the hips.
Thoughts?

I wouldn't though gamble on the other traits and NOT have to really worry about hips.

.
I guess the way I see it is if you gamble on the hips and you lose, it doesn't matter how much workability a dog has because he won't be able to walk / be painfree after awhile.

I would just look until you find the complete package.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:47 AM   #12 (permalink)
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@Meg, I think your statement about workability and pain is greatly exaggerated. When I was in military dog program, the Army/Air Force accepted dogs with up to grade one HD. The screening and diagnostic evals were done by Vets and Trainers that were dealing with this subject for careers and tens of thousands of dogs. These people were making assessments based on real work and empirical knowledge. Most LE will accept dogs with functional hips as determined by competent Vets. These standards are based on a dogs ability to work hard and pain free. For breeders, it is understood why many want "perfect" hips, but most family owners never breed or X-ray their dogs. Most don't really work their dogs. I have seen many many dogs with mild/moderate HD that perform SCH painfree. I am not promoting HD whatsoever, ( before the people take what I say to extremes to support their feelings), but most dogs with moderate hips to normal really do not have the drastic life your post implies. I could be wrong, and your point of reference may be wider and more exhaustive than mine.....but I have found that only severe and crippling HD produce routinely what you are cautioning against. Less than 5% of GS pop....I just don't want people who have xrayed their dogs and maybe gotten a mild HD remember your post and think the dog is in pain or can't do normal things. Jmo
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mego View Post
I guess the way I see it is if you gamble on the hips and you lose, it doesn't matter how much workability a dog has because he won't be able to walk / be painfree after awhile.

I would just look until you find the complete package.
One needs to remember there are many different levels of "bad" when it comes to joints. The severe cases that fall under your description of "won't be able to walk / be painfree" are very much in the minority.

With this specific bloodline, the "bad" I've seen have been such from a radiographic standpoint, but not from a clinical standpoint. Dogs whose hips were considered to be mild HD and thus were not able to pass certification with OFA, etc... but which never bothered the dog at all and had no impact on workability or quality of life.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:38 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Does the complete package really exist?

If the temperament of the pups is as predicted, I'd be more than happy to take the hips risk.

I'm not waiting for Prince Charming anymore either
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace952 View Post
I remember reading a thread on PDB where someone mentioned the fact that the lines that produce really strong dogs with great working temperament can have a high chance of hip issues if you take into account the ZW score.

After some research I see it is true. Peko Haus, Korbelbach, Haus Pixner, Konigshohle... When looking at ZW scores many are in the 90's and 100's.
Interesting as these kennels are known for producing tough dogs with excellent nerve and workability. IMO I rather take all the other traits and take a gamble on the hips.
Thoughts?
Those with much more knowledge have weighed in on the specific pedigree and I have nothing to add other than to say, I like it.

Regarding the quote above, my understanding is that an aspect of the temperament/hips issue goes back to the very foundation of the breed, back to the regional breed types that made up the GSD. In my view, a singular focus on hips likely will have a deleterious impact on temperament and the breed as a whole. I am not saying hips and joints are not important, but, as good breeders and knowledgeable folk often point out, it is one piece of the overall puzzle. Personally, as someone who does not breed, I will take stellar temperament and functional hips over excellent hips and so-so/decent temperament any day of the week and twice on Sunday. In a perfect world, you get the best of both.

Regarding hip improvers, the first name I always see mentioned is Aly. You see this on the dam side of the pedigree you posted. Daryl Ehret has a link on his website with a chart of top hip producers. You may want to check that out.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:11 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I just wanted to clarify my above statement, I know it was a very extreme example. i'm not implying this pair will have EXTREMELY poor hips, I just commented on the 'take a gamble' quote. I guess I just interpreted it too sensitively when OP said "and take a gamble on the hips" because if just read like that it sort of makes it sound like they don't matter at all. I was a little tired, skim read a little bit, and my reaction was like "what, gamble on health?!"

The fact that you participate on this website, ask opinions of those who know such a vast amount of information and actively look at pedigrees tells me otherwise, I know you do care about the hips. I am sure you are very thorough in picking your puppy and wouldn't intentionally ignore hips completely. again, I am sorry. I didn't mean to use such an extreme example.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
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No need to be sorry, we all write posts in haste sometimes, I respect you more because you can analyze what you wrote and write the post you just wrote....much respect.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:17 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Thanks everyone. Sorry about how I worded it. Yes, by gamble I meant a chance of 1 or 2 having mild HD. I didn't mean crippling HD.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:25 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I wouldn't gamble on the hips nor for that matter any other traits when I am paying that much money for a pup. I would look around, wait, and get the best I could afford. Also, if I wanted a pup with the goal of competing in IPO, I would consider the US bred pups from strong working lines that have titled parents and at least 3 generations of good hips.

With pups you aren't guaranteed anything except a living animal...lol. Money isn't a issue here. Pups from this breeder are actually cheaper than US bred pups. Titled parents & 3 generations of good hips guarantee nothing as well. Yes, there are nice bred litters here in the U.S. but there are some overseas and they have more variety.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:50 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Ditto. If you want to go absolutely sure on the hips, then you have to get an A-Stamped green one year old. Otherwise, there is just no such thing as a guarantee that the hips are going to be clean.
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