Was clicking deep back into Katya's pedigree... is this normal?

hunterisgreat · 01-07-2013, 09:53 AM

Linebreeding - 5 generations
2 - 2............................................. in V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein)
4 - 4............................................. in Pollux
5 - 5............................................. in Roland
4 - 4............................................. in Schäfermädchen von Hanau
5 - 5............................................. in Courage
3 - 3............................................. in Lene (Sparwasser)
4 - 4............................................. in Greif von Sparwasser
4 - 4............................................. in Lotte (Sparwasser)
3 - 3............................................. in Kastor Rüde

V Beowulf (Sonnenberg)

Can anyone explain the line breeding to this degree? Granted, this IS a dog born in 1898 (I was just seeing how far back I could actually go), but still... was the gene pool *that* small, the world too big to find many other dogs, or a complete lack of knowledge regarding how genes work? Or all?

**Andaka** · 01-07-2013, 10:04 AM

Back then Max was trying to create the breed. There was much inbreeding on Horand back then to set the type.

qbchottu · 01-07-2013, 10:19 AM

All purebreds are inbred (some more than others) - hence why certain genetic issues pop up in certain breeds where genes have been fixed.

**jocoyn** · 01-07-2013, 10:24 AM

I remember reading some years ago an article written by a sibe person about historical breeding only for type and a rather loose type at that and that to have a purebred something like at least something like 75 different foundation stock dogs would be needed.

Have not found the exact article but since I knew it was in reference to siberian huskies I fell across this.

Information on Canine Genetic Diversity

carmspack · 01-07-2013, 10:33 AM

yes -- this is how breeds begin , whether GSD's or Rocky Mountain horses' Sam Tuttles "Old Tobe" -- (I have this breed of horse and did write a piece in their specialty magazine tracing the genetics and development)

Freestep · 01-07-2013, 11:13 AM

This is how all breeds start out, in order fix desired traits and eliminate undesireable ones. Yes, it's normal.

hunterisgreat · 01-07-2013, 11:30 AM

lmao i didn't even realize that this dog was that close to the first official GSD... so bad example. But I notice even dogs in the 50's had similar levels of line breeding

qbchottu · 01-07-2013, 11:38 AM

The breed is full of linebreeding and inbreedings - all of our dogs have backmassing in their pedigrees. People prematurely insult close breedings, but when done right, it maintains and elevates the breed. It has always been done, and it always will be done to maintain a breed. We cannot breed to a dog that we really like from 30 years ago, but we can try to mass on the genetics we are interested in and bring that out by linebreeding on desired dogs.

Sunflowers · 01-07-2013, 11:46 AM

Yep, we can trace all our dogs to good old Horand

abakerrr · 01-07-2013, 12:51 PM

FWIW

Recently came upon a Tierkerhook dog who is is 2-2 on Nick v Heiligenbosch and 3-3 on Yoschy v.d. Dollenwiese / Vixen v Tierkerhook. Very heavily linebred/inbred but having been done by a breeder known for breeding top WGWL dogs, I can only guess that this cross was done to set and maintain certain desirable traits within his line.

01-07-2013, 09:53 AM	#1 (permalink)
hunterisgreat Knighted Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 2,383	Was clicking deep back into Katya's pedigree... is this normal? Linebreeding - 5 generations 2 - 2............................................. in V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein) 4 - 4............................................. in Pollux 5 - 5............................................. in Roland 4 - 4............................................. in Schäfermädchen von Hanau 5 - 5............................................. in Courage 3 - 3............................................. in Lene (Sparwasser) 4 - 4............................................. in Greif von Sparwasser 4 - 4............................................. in Lotte (Sparwasser) 3 - 3............................................. in Kastor Rüde V Beowulf (Sonnenberg) Can anyone explain the line breeding to this degree? Granted, this IS a dog born in 1898 (I was just seeing how far back I could actually go), but still... was the gene pool that small, the world too big to find many other dogs, or a complete lack of knowledge regarding how genes work? Or all? __________________ Hunter, USA trial helper, Charleston Working Dog Club Training Helper Beschützer des Jägers v. Sportwaffen, HOT, IPO1, AD, CGC Katya v. Hügelblick, HOT, IPO2, CGC SG Aska v. Ketscher Wald, 2 x SchH3, Kkl 1

01-07-2013, 10:04 AM	#2 (permalink)
Andaka "I like Daffy" Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Douglas, IL ( near St. Louis) Posts: 2,931	Back then Max was trying to create the breed. There was much inbreeding on Horand back then to set the type. __________________ Daphne and the Gang at Andaka Where Beauty and Brains Come Together http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/sear...n_shepherd_dog Home of Ch Natty; Ch Doll; Jag CDX GN RE (ch ptd); Sara RN (ch ptd); and Ch. Fisher (Mr. Evil) At the Bridge: Ch Kahla CD; Ch Keno UD HSAs OA; Ch Kizzy HSAs RE; Ch Tag CD RAE2; Ch Pharra; Bee PT; Ch Red the Dachshund

01-07-2013, 10:24 AM	#4 (permalink)
jocoyn Zombie Queen Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 11,876	I remember reading some years ago an article written by a sibe person about historical breeding only for type and a rather loose type at that and that to have a purebred something like at least something like 75 different foundation stock dogs would be needed. Have not found the exact article but since I knew it was in reference to siberian huskies I fell across this. Information on Canine Genetic Diversity __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Beau -NAPWDA Certified Cadaver Dog Waiting at the Bridge (italics=GSDs) (hemangiosarcoma=blue):Grim , Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

01-07-2013, 10:33 AM	#5 (permalink)
carmspack Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 5,552	yes -- this is how breeds begin , whether GSD's or Rocky Mountain horses' Sam Tuttles "Old Tobe" -- (I have this breed of horse and did write a piece in their specialty magazine tracing the genetics and development) __________________ Carmen ******** Carmspack**

01-07-2013, 11:30 AM	#7 (permalink)
hunterisgreat Knighted Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 2,383	lmao i didn't even realize that this dog was that close to the first official GSD... so bad example. But I notice even dogs in the 50's had similar levels of line breeding __________________ Hunter, USA trial helper, Charleston Working Dog Club Training Helper Beschützer des Jägers v. Sportwaffen, HOT, IPO1, AD, CGC Katya v. Hügelblick, HOT, IPO2, CGC SG Aska v. Ketscher Wald, 2 x SchH3, Kkl 1

01-07-2013, 10:19 AM	#3 (permalink)
qbchottu Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,714	All purebreds are inbred (some more than others) - hence why certain genetic issues pop up in certain breeds where genes have been fixed.

01-07-2013, 11:13 AM	#6 (permalink)
Freestep Crowned Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Northern California Posts: 5,158	This is how all breeds start out, in order fix desired traits and eliminate undesireable ones. Yes, it's normal.

01-07-2013, 11:38 AM	#8 (permalink)
qbchottu Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,714	The breed is full of linebreeding and inbreedings - all of our dogs have backmassing in their pedigrees. People prematurely insult close breedings, but when done right, it maintains and elevates the breed. It has always been done, and it always will be done to maintain a breed. We cannot breed to a dog that we really like from 30 years ago, but we can try to mass on the genetics we are interested in and bring that out by linebreeding on desired dogs.

01-07-2013, 11:46 AM	#9 (permalink)
Sunflowers Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Central Florida Posts: 4,683	Yep, we can trace all our dogs to good old Horand __________________ Norden von Narnia--Hans, dob 1-15-2012 http://pdgf.pitapata.com/uC6lm4.png

01-07-2013, 12:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
abakerrr Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Central NY Posts: 175	FWIW Recently came upon a Tierkerhook dog who is is 2-2 on Nick v Heiligenbosch and 3-3 on Yoschy v.d. Dollenwiese / Vixen v Tierkerhook. Very heavily linebred/inbred but having been done by a breeder known for breeding top WGWL dogs, I can only guess that this cross was done to set and maintain certain desirable traits within his line.

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