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Old 01-04-2013, 11:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't think I could do that.

I either own the dog outright as my companion/working dog, or I have no interest in him/her at all.

Just my way of thinking.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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If you have a chance to co-own this dog just to gain experience through training, working, and trialing, I would go for it! At the very worst, it will be an incredibly rich experience for you.
This!

MichaelE, it is a very good way to get your foot in the door into the world of showing and breeding (and probably working too).

Of course you build a relationship with a breeder first
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:35 PM   #13 (permalink)
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This!

MichaelE, it is a very good way to get your foot in the door into the world of showing and breeding (and probably working too).

Of course you build a relationship with a breeder first
Absolutely! Both of my dogs are co-owned (by me and her two breeders). I never would've been able to afford a show puppy otherwise. The whole arrangement is a win-win for all of us. It's very common in the show world.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:12 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I would pass .
What obligations are there placed upon you.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:59 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I would pass .
What obligations are there placed upon you.
I provide her with food, water, a place to stay and any vet care that she may need. But, she's up to date on her shots and dewormings and gets her monthly heartworm preventative, so the only thing I should need to take her to our vet for would be a check-up and to get her heartworm preventative. I get your typical dog owning expenses, but when we go to show her the breeder would be responsible for paying entry fees and such.

I am at least going to meet the dog tomorrow afternoon and at least see if she would be something that I would consider co-owning and if I like her. I visited Viernheimi Kennel's webpage and looked at this girl's dad and half siblings and watched videos of them working. So far I like what I have seen of the siblings by both her dad and the ones related to her from her mom. She's already earned her UKC conformation championship when she was just 6 months old and it was the first few times that she had been in the ring and it was against older dogs that had been doing this a while. So, in my opinion, that speaks volumes about this girl's temperament if she was that stable in her temperament and that mature mentally at 6 months. I've seen a few 6 month old puppies that wouldn't have held still in the ring for handling if their life depended on it. So, I'm at least checking her out and visiting with her tomorrow and if all goes well and I like the contract and such, I'll be co-owning her!
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:12 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I am familiar with the breeder you plan to co-own with. What exactly were your requirements for a mentor? There are far more knowledgeable people in the show/sport world that you could affiliate yourself with. Yes, even in KY - though you seem to constantly repeat otherwise. In fact, in your other thread, several breeders and clubs were recommended, but I see you've chosen to disregard that advice.

The breeders have never put a working title (a real working title) on a dog. There are no actual SV or AKC show ratings on any of the breeding dogs. Out of 10 dogs, they only have one CGC title amongst all of them. Sorry to say this, but UKC show titles don't have any real weight and mean nothing to most serious work/show people - a decent dog with practice can point. DM Clear is not a title or point of recognition - a bare minimum health requirement and a contested test at that. This is a pet breeder to say it in the nicest way.

So if your plan is to affiliate yourself with a pet breeder AND do the leg work for them by taking care of their dog, my biggest question is...what is in it for you?

I have co-owned before, but with a fairly well-established show breeder that breeder/handler owned/trained dogs. I gained valuable insight and experience in the show/work world. I got fantastic training and learned the day to day requirements for work/show dogs. What experience will a pet breeder be able to offer you in this aspect? Be very careful with co-ownerships - more often than not, they turn sour and the dog loses out in the end.

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Old 01-05-2013, 10:26 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I am familiar with the breeder you plan to co-own with. What exactly were your requirements for a mentor? There are far more knowledgeable people in the show/sport world that you could affiliate yourself with. Yes, even in KY - though you seem to constantly repeat otherwise. In fact, in your other thread, several breeders and clubs were recommended, but I see you've chosen to disregard that advice.

The breeders have never put a working title (a real working title) on a dog. There are no actual SV or AKC show ratings on any of the breeding dogs. Out of 10 dogs, they only have one CGC title amongst all of them. Sorry to say this, but UKC show titles don't have any real weight and mean nothing to most serious work/show people - a decent dog with practice can point. DM Clear is not a title or point of recognition - a bare minimum health requirement and a contested test at that. This is a pet breeder to say it in the nicest way.

So if your plan is to affiliate yourself with a pet breeder AND do the leg work for them by taking care of their dog, my biggest question is...what is in it for you?

I have co-owned before, but with a fairly well-established show breeder that breeder/handler owned/trained dogs. I gained valuable insight and experience in the show/work world. I got fantastic training and learned the day to day requirements for work/show dogs. What experience will a pet breeder be able to offer you in this aspect? Be very careful with co-ownerships - more often than not, they turn sour and the dog loses out in the end.
To answer your biggest question, I gain show experience and experience working with different bloodlines and types of dogs. I appreciate your opinion of the breeder, but that's not what I was asking for people's opinions about. I asked for opinions on this dog and her lines. Not everyone chooses to go with the AKC show ring route and not everyone wants to do the exact same thing. The reason I love this breed of dog is that it can do it all and there is no reason to limit yourself to only doing working titles and events. Now with that being said, they aren't just sitting at home and doing nothing with their dogs. They do title them and show them, just not in the venue that you'd like to see them titled and shown in. So, what? I'm not looking for a dog to co-own with a Sch3 title or to even get that title with a dog.

And as far as clubs and breeders that were recommended in my other thread, I am planning on joining one of the Louisville training clubs as that is the closest city to me that offers a training club. I'm not going to drive over an hour away one way just to participate in a schutzhund training club if that isn't exactly what I'm wanting to do with this dog. And as for the breeders that were recommended, yes they are all nice breeders of top notch working dogs that I could never afford right now. So, this is my way of getting involved within the breed and I just don't understand why you're so quick to judge me and knock me for getting involved when there are so many more problems within this breed and so many more people just sitting behind their computer desks at home that are truly doing nothing at all with the breed.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:36 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I am asking you the same questions I would ask of myself. Your initial goal and line of questioning was regarding becoming a responsible breeder. Then you wanted to show and train once you were able to get info on how to go about breeding good dogs - this is perfectly fine, but I am seriously wondering WHY this breeder and this dog if those are your goals? What about researching bloodlines, doing the leg work, finding a good breeder that backs up their breedings with the necessary work/show input into the dogs, saving up for said puppy, and learning with that puppy?

But you don't really gain "show" experience that you could gain by yourself with your OWN dog. UKC is very open to newcomers - you would have no problem practicing and pointing your OWN dog.

I mentioned both AKC and SV - the avenues that carry actual weight where you could get serious show experience.

No - there is no reason to limit yourself. But if you plan to find a mentor and take advice from someone, why not do it with someone with experience and achievements in the venues you plan to participate in?

What work titles do the dogs have? What show titles (not UKC) have they put on their dogs? Do they keep and title dogs out of their own breedings - I do not see any evidence of this. Nearly the entire kennel is imports - what can they offer you in terms of preserving and maintaining bloodlines?

If you cannot afford a "top notch working dog", why not save up and do it right? Cutting corners is not the way to go. Train with the best, learn from the best, and you will succeed as well. I am confused why you take this route...

Judging you? Nah, I don't care or know enough about you to make any judgement call on you. I am asking the questions I would ask of ANYONE and certainly of myself if I was planning something like this. No need to get defensive, I am telling you what I observe and know. If you choose to disregard that, no skin off my back and good luck in your endeavors!
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:45 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelE View Post
I don't think I could do that.

I either own the dog outright as my companion/working dog, or I have no interest in him/her at all.

Just my way of thinking.
I didn't think I could either but I've co-owned three dogs in my life (JR, Ringer and Honey). I didn't have a written contract since this was done with good friends, but if I were to co-own a dog again, all the arrangements would be written by a lawyer or someone experienced in this type of arrangement and signed by both parties.

FWIW, my original deal with JR was I was his caretaker ... I only became his co-owner when he almost died and needed emergency surgery and I had a hard time contacting his owners to get their consent. Ringer and Honey were always co-owned from the time I got them (my friends picked the puppies out and they lived with me). All three lived "happily ever after" as my beloved pets ... and I'm still friends with the people who gave them to me.

But on the other hand you have to be careful ... I wouldn't co-own a dead cockroach with Bruiser's breeder ... she was a bold faced liar who defrauded me.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:05 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'd also agree that I would find a more successful breeder - or if money is the issue, I would look for a rescue with a good temperament to learn with. There are lots of very nice GSD's in shelters. Sure, you couldn't breed, but there's no rush to start breeding (especially if money is the issue!).

I currently co-own 2 dogs (one GSD and one JRT), I was going to share my experience, but it sounds like your mind is pretty much made up on the issue.
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